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  #121  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2019, 4:40 PM
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Originally Posted by 1ajs View Post
stop digging trenches u guys.

the real issue that really needs to be said is were looking at now not 20 years out 40 yrs out. government sure doesnt care much about that far out they are only concerned about now as thats what keeps u elected the fundimental flaw of democracy and the lack of proper action on this issue
I agree. the need for action on this issue is immediate and urgent. i seriously wish we could stop "digging trenches" as you said, but that would require a mature and serious discussion of the facts of the issue from both sides.

Unfortunately, the climate deniers see "facts" as subjective and open to manipulation and outright falsehood. Have the Paris Accord countries reduced their carbon footprint like they promised? No, for the most part they have failed up to now. This doesn't give license to the opposition to somehow claim climate change isn't happening, or that their guy has somehow reduced carbon emissions by ignoring the facts of climate change and gutting environmental protections.

Like I and other have pointed out before, one shouldn't waste their time arguing with fools. All we can do is hope to make our case as clearly and convincingly as possible and appeal to the rational segment of the voting population. The deniers will still shriek, threaten, mock, lie and generally make a lot of indignant noises, but hopefully they can be ignored long enough for all countries to take meaningful steps to stop destroying the world we share.
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  #122  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2019, 5:23 PM
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Originally Posted by djforsberg View Post
Wrong. It’s patterns and frequency of weather and overall average temperatures that are pointed to in terms of weather identifying climate change. This information is freely accessible and fairly easy for anyone to understand if they really wanted to. I can see why a science-denier would be scared to accept it though as doing so would cause their entire world view to come crashing down.
Anyone who uses the word denier loses all credibility immediately. Science is skepticism and skepticism is science. And if you are really dumb enough to think the point of a carbon tax is to deter behaviour, wouldn’t giving rebates kind of defeat the whole point? It’s all about the money, yet the climate doomsayers like yourself preach to others while doing little themselves. Why didn’t you answer the questions I previously asked you?

What kind of vehicles does your family own?
What do you use to post on forums?
How do you heat your home?
How did you get to your last vacation destination?
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  #123  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2019, 5:25 PM
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This 100%. This is what leaders are supposed to help people see. But most of our politicians are not leaders nowadays. I don’t know what the answer is to always being reactionary.
Tell us, what are you doing to fight climate change? How about you start first, why wait for government?
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  #124  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2019, 5:32 PM
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Here's a question. Why does government have to be involved with everything? Are we that helpless?
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  #125  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2019, 6:08 PM
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Originally Posted by optimusREIM View Post
Here's a question. Why does government have to be involved with everything? Are we that helpless?
Tried to like this post!

The notion that increase in gasoline prices will discourage driving is completely bunk, gas prices have been high in Europe for decades and people still pay and drive just as much.
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  #126  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2019, 7:08 PM
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Originally Posted by optimusREIM View Post
Here's a question. Why does government have to be involved with everything? Are we that helpless?
Hasn’t this discussion here proved here that we are? We already have a higher concentration of carbon in the air then any time in the last 800,000 years. We have maybe 12 years to prevent runaway carbon concentrations and we aren’t doing a good job as a global population to make the hard decisions to prevent this from happening. Just because others aren’t working hard enough to do the right thing, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try and get ahead of it. That’s what leaders do. Leaders don’t succumb to the lowest comment denominator. The prairies, for instance, wouldn’t have been populated if it wasn’t for the pioneers taking risks when it was much more easier to stay close to the larger, established settlements out east. And no amount of failed doomsday prophecies of the past discredits the insurmountable evidence we have today to support our current understanding of climate change.
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  #127  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2019, 7:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Migs View Post
Tell us, what are you doing to fight climate change? How about you start first, why wait for government?
Because the problem is so great that individuals can’t make a significant change, despite everything I personally do for moral reasons and to set an example. That’s why we must come together as not only Canadians, but humans in general to do something cooperatively now instead of leaving it to future generations to deal with. We have done it before with leaded gasoline and ozone killing CFCs.

Ps I already answered you. Your logical fallacies, particularly the hypocrisy fallacy, do not belong in any debate about a general topic. Your lack of understanding of logical fallacies, which I have brought up to you in the past, is enough to even question why I’m even bothering to reply to you. I’m never going to be able to change your mind. Maybe I believe in people too much. I hope for your children’s sake that we start to make meaningful progress in lowering our carbon emissions and soon.
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  #128  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2019, 7:16 PM
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Originally Posted by pspeid View Post
I agree. the need for action on this issue is immediate and urgent. i seriously wish we could stop "digging trenches" as you said, but that would require a mature and serious discussion of the facts of the issue from both sides.

Unfortunately, the climate deniers see "facts" as subjective and open to manipulation and outright falsehood. Have the Paris Accord countries reduced their carbon footprint like they promised? No, for the most part they have failed up to now. This doesn't give license to the opposition to somehow claim climate change isn't happening, or that their guy has somehow reduced carbon emissions by ignoring the facts of climate change and gutting environmental protections.

Like I and other have pointed out before, one shouldn't waste their time arguing with fools. All we can do is hope to make our case as clearly and convincingly as possible and appeal to the rational segment of the voting population. The deniers will still shriek, threaten, mock, lie and generally make a lot of indignant noises, but hopefully they can be ignored long enough for all countries to take meaningful steps to stop destroying the world we share.
I dunno why I do it to myself.
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  #129  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2019, 7:25 PM
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Anyways, I’m done trying to defend what most Canadians want action on. I’m not the expert and no one else here is. If anyone wants to learn more about the carbon tax, you can start here: https://ecofiscal.ca/10-myths-about-...ing-in-canada/.
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  #130  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2019, 2:49 AM
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We clearly need to take action on climate change. My problem is with the approach the government has taken - tax vs incentive. The carbon tax as a whole will increase the cost of everything, even in industries where efficiency is already top of mind - like the trucking company (Siemens I believe) that was quoted as saying they already invest in the most efficient trucks and processes. The carbon tax will just increase their costs. In addition, this is an issue that has no borders, so we just become more uncompetitive while China continues to build coal plants at a rate that will dwarf any reduction in Canadian emissions.

My house is nine years old and my furnace is low-90% efficiency. Is the carbon tax suppose to get me to replace this furnace with a more efficient one? In addition, I am being punished for living in Saskatoon’s cold climate. The carbon used to produce a slightly more efficient furnace will likely take a long time to repay. My car is six years old and won’t be replaced soon, so the carbon tax won’t get me to buy an even more efficient car. I already drive as little as possible and I don’t work Downtown so Transit is not a suitable option. So I just end up paying another tax without reducing emissions. This is the problem with this tax - because most carbon-producing things are inelastic and difficult to substitute, we will all just end up paying more if we are already efficient.

Incentives only are the way to go - on electric vehicles, solar, green business investments, etc. I know there is the rebate on the carbon tax, but it just doesn’t work the same way as an incentive that brings a good electric car into the $30,000 range. This is what gets me to change my behaviour in a meaningful way - my car, and many others, would be replaced with electric much sooner. A $10-15,000 incentive is much more impactful than paying a 5-10c/L more for gas, even if that ends up costing me thousands over the years.

Hopefully Scheer can think of this (or any other type) of Policy alternative other than just complaining about the carbon tax.
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  #131  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2019, 2:50 AM
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Originally Posted by rrskylar View Post
Tried to like this post!

The notion that increase in gasoline prices will discourage driving is completely bunk, gas prices have been high in Europe for decades and people still pay and drive just as much.
what its done is pushed people to buy more fuel efficent cars thats all its done
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  #132  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2019, 2:09 PM
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Originally Posted by skyhigh953 View Post
We clearly need to take action on climate change. My problem is with the approach the government has taken - tax vs incentive. The carbon tax as a whole will increase the cost of everything, even in industries where efficiency is already top of mind - like the trucking company (Siemens I believe) that was quoted as saying they already invest in the most efficient trucks and processes. The carbon tax will just increase their costs. In addition, this is an issue that has no borders, so we just become more uncompetitive while China continues to build coal plants at a rate that will dwarf any reduction in Canadian emissions.

My house is nine years old and my furnace is low-90% efficiency. Is the carbon tax suppose to get me to replace this furnace with a more efficient one? In addition, I am being punished for living in Saskatoon’s cold climate. The carbon used to produce a slightly more efficient furnace will likely take a long time to repay. My car is six years old and won’t be replaced soon, so the carbon tax won’t get me to buy an even more efficient car. I already drive as little as possible and I don’t work Downtown so Transit is not a suitable option. So I just end up paying another tax without reducing emissions. This is the problem with this tax - because most carbon-producing things are inelastic and difficult to substitute, we will all just end up paying more if we are already efficient.

Incentives only are the way to go - on electric vehicles, solar, green business investments, etc. I know there is the rebate on the carbon tax, but it just doesn’t work the same way as an incentive that brings a good electric car into the $30,000 range. This is what gets me to change my behaviour in a meaningful way - my car, and many others, would be replaced with electric much sooner. A $10-15,000 incentive is much more impactful than paying a 5-10c/L more for gas, even if that ends up costing me thousands over the years.

Hopefully Scheer can think of this (or any other type) of Policy alternative other than just complaining about the carbon tax.
The link I posted addresses your concerns. Incentives should be part of carbon taxes (and funded by them).
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  #133  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2019, 2:54 PM
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Skyhigh. If you have an efficient home and car you will make money on the carbon tax. Again. 90% of the money going into it from ALL sources, is coming back to citizens. If we all end up paying more than is taken in, the market is gouging consumers.

I’ll say t again. In Manitoba the largest source of emissions is private vehicles. Any plan must include that. There are more than 1 million cars in the province. About 50,000 new cars are sold here every year. If incentives could triple the number of electric vehicles sold, that would be 12,000 per year. That means it would take 80 years to switch out all vehicles. The cost of incentives would also be crippling. If we could get half the cars sold every year in Manitoba to be electric through a $10,000 rebate that would cost $250 million per year. Just in Manitoba. And that’s only addressing 35% of emissions sources. The only solution is to get people to change behaviour.

In the 1980’s only 10% of vehicles sold were trucks. Today 70% are trucks or SUV’s. There is no need for that. In the 1970’s the average home size was 1100 square feet. Today it is over 2,000. With one person less living in each house on average. These are the things that need to change. The Carbon Tax addresses the people who are the problem. It rewards those who are not. Incentives and better transit so you can make choices should be part of it but they must be funded by the carbon tax or they won’t happen. But as we see if it was not revenue neutral it would never fly politically. People are upset even though they are getting the money back. Imagine if they weren’t

The vast majority of people are not you. You don’t have to worry because you will come out ahead.
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  #134  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2019, 2:56 PM
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Originally Posted by 1ajs View Post
what its done is pushed people to buy more fuel efficent cars thats all its done
Or drive diesel vehicles whose mileage and emissions figures have all been fudged by The manufactures of these vehicles!

Actually in Europe surprisingly they drive fairly similar vehicles to here minus the full size pickup trucks, people there just accept paying more for fuel as they will here, driving habits won’t change, those at the bottom of the socio economic scale will suffer more.

In Europe there are way more options for public transportation which we don’t have here, a carbon levy on fuel is unfair to anyone in rural Canada where even bus service no longer exists!

Viking makes a valid point about carbon tax rebates coming back but fails to tell us that the effects of the carbon tax translate into increases in all the products we consume and use through increases in transportation costs, heating for businesses etc. those increases you don’t get back!

Last edited by rrskylar; Apr 20, 2019 at 3:07 PM.
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  #135  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2019, 2:57 PM
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Google: Economists Carbon Tax and you’ll see that the strategy is overwhelmingly supported by economists of all political stripes around the entire world. I know people like to dig into their political trenches and hate everything the other side does, but carbon pricing is a Conservative idea and global warming is a bipartisan issue.

Last edited by trueviking; Apr 20, 2019 at 3:14 PM.
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  #136  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2019, 3:50 PM
Migs Migs is offline
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Originally Posted by djforsberg View Post
Because the problem is so great that individuals can’t make a significant change,
When you come to the point in your life where you think you need to rely on government, may as well throw in the towel. Your submission is quite sad
Quote:
despite everything I personally do for moral reasons and to set an example. That’s why we must come together as not only Canadians, but humans in general to do something cooperatively now instead of leaving it to future generations to deal with. We have done it before with leaded gasoline and ozone killing CFCs.

Ps I already answered you. Your logical fallacies, particularly the hypocrisy fallacy, do not belong in any debate about a general topic. Your lack of understanding of logical fallacies, which I have brought up to you in the past, is enough to even question why I’m even bothering to reply to you. I’m never going to be able to change your mind. Maybe I believe in people too much. I hope for your children’s sake that we start to make meaningful progress in lowering our carbon emissions and soon.
My kids will be smart enough to understand that the earth is 6 billion years old, climates been changing since it’s creation and nothing we are doing makes any difference when things like the sun & volcanos rule the roost

And yeah I didn’t think you’d answer the simple questions. Hypocrosy at its finest.

Gonna go fire up my F-150 again, just for you wasting my time reading your ridiculous rhetoric.
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  #137  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2019, 3:52 PM
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what its done is pushed people to buy more fuel efficent cars thats all its done
It pushed me to buy an F-150 and buy my wife a diesel Mercedes.
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  #138  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2019, 3:56 PM
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Originally Posted by optimusREIM View Post
Here's a question. Why does government have to be involved with everything? Are we that helpless?
When people feel their only hope in life is the likes of Justin Trudeau and his climate Barbie then their misery is their own fault.
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  #139  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2019, 4:02 PM
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
Google: Economists Carbon Tax and you’ll see that the strategy is overwhelmingly supported by economists of all political stripes around the entire world. I know people like to dig into their political trenches and hate everything the other side does, but carbon pricing is a Conservative idea and global warming is a bipartisan issue.
How does one explain that a country like the USA, that doesn’t have a carbon tax, is decreasing their carbon emissions on a greater scale than the majority that have signed onto the Paris Agreement. hmmm
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  #140  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2019, 4:07 PM
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Originally Posted by rrskylar View Post
Or drive diesel vehicles whose mileage and emissions figures have all been fudged by The manufactures of these vehicles!

Actually in Europe surprisingly they drive fairly similar vehicles to here minus the full size pickup trucks, people there just accept paying more for fuel as they will here, driving habits won’t change, those at the bottom of the socio economic scale will suffer more.

In Europe there are way more options for public transportation which we don’t have here, a carbon levy on fuel is unfair to anyone in rural Canada where even bus service no longer exists!

Viking makes a valid point about carbon tax rebates coming back but fails to tell us that the effects of the carbon tax translate into increases in all the products we consume and use through increases in transportation costs, heating for businesses etc. those increases you don’t get back!
even if gas went to 10$ a leter i would still need to drive 100kms or more a day for my communte. living closer to work is not an option as i am allready as close as u can in the summer. otherwise i would be illegaly living in the bush or in a toxic waste dump.

as for ev's i dont think they would last to long at my work as all the roads are made of tailings witch is acidic ph 2....
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