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  #61  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2019, 2:11 PM
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Originally Posted by emathias View Post
Grids aren't necessarily more efficient, it really depends on the use. They probably do make Manhattan more efficient, and maybe Chicago, but it's argue that is only because Manhattan is long and thin, so there just aren't many 45 degree trips. Similarly, in Chicago, the density of the city is pushed up narrowly along the Lake, which is also where diagonals are also more common. I don't think it's a coincidence that some of the most popular neighborhoods away from the Lake are bisected by diagonal streets.

In an unbroken grid, and trip that requires you to go an equal distance North or South and East or West is, by the rules of geometry, 40% longer than perfectly point-to-point trip would be, whereas the worst trips in Paris rarely add more than 25%. In cars, this can be worse if measuring in time rather than distance, but the addition of grand avenues and boulevards linking the most important points reduces that while leaving shorter routes for the pedestrians and Metro. And once you realize that to optimize for car traffic density goes down, it becomes apparent that grids really increase the perception of efficiency more than they actually increase absolute efficiency.
Grids are a bit like 1950s concepts of towers-in-a-park residential communities. Beloved of urban planners at a desk but, when it comes down to it, not preferred by real human beings. They’re not usually evocative of anything, and not so conducive to “placemaking”. Manhattan’s endless canyons might be one of the few exceptions to the former, but without that kind of density, or at the very least a good unbroken mid-rise streetwall, grids are downright boring.
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  #62  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2019, 2:16 PM
Sun Belt Sun Belt is offline
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
"Supreme" only if you're waiting on your Papa John's order and the delivery driver has only been on the job a month...otherwise it's subjective. Two of my favorite cities; NYC and London have both examples and I don't think twice about their street patterns. It's an after thought...
Gridded cities, or gridded regions within cities are efficient at moving people and goods [also better land use].

There is no argument about that. Now whether a winding street is aesthetically more pleasing than one that is oriented to the campus, that's all simply subjective.
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  #63  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2019, 3:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
Gridded cities, or gridded regions within cities are efficient at moving people and goods [also better land use].

There is no argument about that. Now whether a winding street is aesthetically more pleasing than one that is oriented to the campus, that's all simply subjective.
I live in a largely gridded city. We suck at land use and moving people. It's about governance and politics not so much the streets themselves. NYC and London, again, are examples of each style and do incredibly well in both instances. NY is extremely easy to navigate for tourists.
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  #64  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2019, 4:37 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
Grids are a bit like 1950s concepts of towers-in-a-park residential communities. Beloved of urban planners at a desk but, when it comes down to it, not preferred by real human beings. They’re not usually evocative of anything, and not so conducive to “placemaking”. Manhattan’s endless canyons might be one of the few exceptions to the former, but without that kind of density, or at the very least a good unbroken mid-rise streetwall, grids are downright boring.
The problem is you cant plan for winding streets. In order to achieve it in the "right way" it has to be organic and be done over decades and decades.

unless you are building a theme park or a shopping center it does not make sense in any modern context to build like that. Investors wont fund projects, builders wont waste land doing it when they can fit more in an efficient grid pattern.
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  #65  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2019, 4:45 PM
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Originally Posted by emathias View Post
I don't think it's a coincidence that some of the most popular neighborhoods away from the Lake are bisected by diagonal streets.
agree. one of my favorite aspects of lincoln square is the way lincoln ave. diagonally cuts across and interrupts the city's ubiquitous grid, creating more interesting and inviting intersections. some of the bigger 6 corner intersections where 3 major streets all collide can be more problematic (however, much of that is due to the way the traffic engineers of the past gave them over to the cars because they are such major choke points), but the smaller ones where you get odd street interactions/angles or view-terminating buildings because the grid gets interrupted are very welcome in city that is pretty monotonously and rigidly gridded for the most part.
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  #66  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2019, 8:16 PM
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All the "boring New York grid" commenters mustn't be very familiar with the outer boroughs...


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  #67  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2019, 9:41 PM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
They’re not usually evocative of anything, and not so conducive to “placemaking”.
Well, grids are evocative of state power and order over chaos, which is why, even among the great European cities, the most important and monumental spaces within them are often laid out in a formal grid
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  #68  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2019, 9:46 PM
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Originally Posted by nito View Post
Strava bicycle heat maps for London and New York



First pic: n00b simcity player
Second pic: powergamer
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  #69  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2019, 2:17 AM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
No. As far as I know, London cabbies still have to take the Knowledge test.
what about the uber lyfters?
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  #70  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2019, 8:10 AM
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Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
what about the uber lyfters?
There’s no Lyft in London.

But no, Uber drivers have no fucking clue where they’re going and you’d better be prepared to direct them if you don’t want to sit in unnecessary traffic and take pointless detours.
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  #71  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2019, 4:06 PM
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DCs grid is well known planning and generally it avoids monotony with the diagonal avenues, but some areas make me wonder what they were smoking back then...





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  #72  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2019, 11:06 PM
jd3189 jd3189 is offline
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
All the "boring New York grid" commenters mustn't be very familiar with the outer boroughs...




This is something that I also thought about including in this thread since it’s the next best thing to the winding streets seen in Europe. Brooklyn, Queens, and I think even the Bronx did not start out as cities that encompassed the full land area of the current boroughs/counties.

Kings County, for instance, had six cities within its borders which all eventually combined to form Brooklyn. Each of those cities are now distinct neighborhoods with the same name which all have their own grid pattern.

There are US cities that have multiple grid patterns within them. NYC and SF are two I can think of.
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