HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #21  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2019, 3:14 PM
badrunner badrunner is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 2,698
Guys, when it comes to sports, forget about city limits, MSA, CSA, throw all that out the window.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...vision_markets

As you can see, San Francisco and San Jose are in the same media market while DC - Baltimore are in separate markets.

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #22  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2019, 3:23 PM
suburbanite's Avatar
suburbanite suburbanite is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Toronto & NYC
Posts: 5,373
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
During the 1980's, there were various attempts to put a MLB team in the NJ Meadowlands. Trump, during his USFL days, claimed he wanted to buy a team and move it to NJ.

Most of NJ is Yankee territory, but I actually don't think it's an insane idea. It would likely be a better market than the bottom dozen or so MLB teams. NJ has 9 million people and is among the wealthiest states, and it's a huge pain to cross the Hudson for a game.
9 Million people but in a pretty decentralized state. NJ to me makes a ton of sense for the NFL if the Giants weren't already located in the Meadowlands. You look at a density map and stick a stadium right in between those three large population clusters, that's a massive and wealthy catchment area to get people out to a game 8 times a year.



Baseball attendance is a long and arduous grind though. There can be a lot of weekday afternoon games were people likely aren't commuting from Trenton or Brick Township to Newark. I'm guessing you're looking at a regional population closer to 5-6 million if you stick the stadium in Newark? Still a solid prospective fanbase, but that's ignoring the tv viewership effects that the Yankees would have in the North and the Phillies in the South.
__________________
Discontented suburbanite since 1994
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #23  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2019, 3:34 PM
dave8721 dave8721 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Miami
Posts: 4,036
Quote:
Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
Guys, when it comes to sports, forget about city limits, MSA, CSA, throw all that out the window.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...vision_markets

As you can see, San Francisco and San Jose are in the same media market while DC - Baltimore are in separate markets.
Miami and West Palm Beach are different media markets but I dont think anyone would consider them different sports markets.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #24  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2019, 3:37 PM
Handro Handro is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
theoretically? perhaps it could.

practically? no.


da bears are the official state religion of chicagoland.

who's gonna wanna go up against that?


besides, as one of only two remaining founding franchises of the NFL, the bears hold a lot of sway within the organization, and i can't envision any scenario where a majority of team owners would vote against the bears and allow a 2nd team in chicago.
This. If Chicago were to support another franchise in one of the 4 major sports, it would probably be basketball. The Bulls have squandered most of their 90s cache' with 25 years of terrible management (due to both tight fists and thick skulls).

I could see a second NBA team, marketed correctly, doing well in Chicago.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #25  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2019, 3:38 PM
badrunner badrunner is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 2,698
Quote:
Originally Posted by suburbanite View Post
9 Million people but in a pretty decentralized state. NJ to me makes a ton of sense for the NFL if the Giants weren't already located in the Meadowlands. You look at a density map and stick a stadium right in between those three large population clusters, that's a massive and wealthy catchment area to get people out to a game 8 times a year.


The problem with that plan can be seen in the map of media markets above. NJ doesn't have its own media market and is instead split between NYC/Philly. If it was its own media market then yes it would be one of the most important markets in the country and could probably support multiple sports franchises in addition to the NY/Philly teams
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2019, 3:41 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by suburbanite View Post
9 Million people but in a pretty decentralized state.
It's not really decentralized, though. Around 7.5 million NJ residents live within 50 miles of Manhattan. There's also nearly another million folks in NY State west of Hudson, with the same regional accessibility issues. Most of the rest of NJ is nearly empty, excepting the 1 million people around Philly.

I don't think it's the greatest location for a team, but I think it could plausibly work, given the insane congestion on the GW Bridge. The same doesn't hold for the other sports given that the NFL, NHL and MLS are already in NJ, and NBA is easily accessible for NJ residents, since MSG and Barclays are both reached by subway connecting to PATH and NJ Transit.

Baseball is the only major sport where 8 million+ people (Northern/Central NJ and adjacent parts NY State) are blocked from easy accessibility. There's no cross-Hudson transit easily serving the Yankees or Mets, and GW Bridge is hell for cars.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #27  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2019, 3:43 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave8721 View Post
Miami and West Palm Beach are different media markets but I dont think anyone would consider them different sports markets.
I don't think anyone cares about media markets these days, given the fractured state of media. My parents get Toronto news; they're five hours away.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #28  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2019, 3:43 PM
xzmattzx's Avatar
xzmattzx xzmattzx is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Wilmington, DE
Posts: 6,343
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave8721 View Post
Miami and West Palm Beach are different media markets but I dont think anyone would consider them different sports markets.
Not every media market has to support only teams within its market. Altoona is a separate media market, but it's Pittsburgh sports country. The difference with Washington and Baltimore is that people in the Washington media market support the Washington MLB and NFL teams, and people in the Baltimore media market support the Baltimore MLB and NFL teams. There's a line of delineation just as much as there's a line of delineation between the Philadelphia and New York media markets, and where the Eagles/Phillies fans end and Giants/Yankees fans begin.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #29  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2019, 3:43 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 9,787
I think DFW or Miami are the most likely candidates. I think it would have to be a fast growing Sun Belt city that can create a fan base out of new arrivals. Add points for a poly-centric metros. It also helps if there is no existing franchise already, or the current franchise doesn't have a strong fan base. So, probably not another NFL team in DFW, but I could imagine another NBA franchise.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #30  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2019, 3:44 PM
badrunner badrunner is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 2,698
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave8721 View Post
Miami and West Palm Beach are different media markets but I dont think anyone would consider them different sports markets.
If West Palm Beach had a team they would be considered different sports markets. They're about the same distance apart as LA/SD.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #31  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2019, 3:44 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 29,636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Handro View Post
with 25 years of terrible management (due to both tight fists and thick skulls).
and some really bad injury luck.

all signs pointed to D-rose going to the hall of fame some day, but his knees simply said "NO".




i hate thinking about it.
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #32  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2019, 3:54 PM
LA21st LA21st is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 6,992
Miami is a awful sports town. I can't imagine adding another team there, or anywhere in Florida. Florida should lose sports teams, not gain.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #33  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2019, 4:05 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
It's not really decentralized, though. Around 7.5 million NJ residents live within 50 miles of Manhattan. There's also nearly another million folks in NY State west of Hudson, with the same regional accessibility issues. Most of the rest of NJ is nearly empty, excepting the 1 million people around Philly.

I don't think it's the greatest location for a team, but I think it could plausibly work, given the insane congestion on the GW Bridge. The same doesn't hold for the other sports given that the NFL, NHL and MLS are already in NJ, and NBA is easily accessible for NJ residents, since MSG and Barclays are both reached by subway connecting to PATH and NJ Transit.

Baseball is the only major sport where 8 million+ people (Northern/Central NJ and adjacent parts NY State) are blocked from easy accessibility. There's no cross-Hudson transit easily serving the Yankees or Mets, and GW Bridge is hell for cars.
I can attest to that. I was staying in New Jersey earlier this year and wanted to take in an MLB game in NYC with my family and the logistics (either by car or transit) for getting to and from an evening game were just a nightmare. I realize that it's a huge metro and that it takes time to get around but the % of my late afternoon and evening that would have been eaten up by this was just too much.
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #34  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2019, 4:06 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 29,636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Handro View Post

I could see a second NBA team, marketed correctly, doing well in Chicago.
i don't see it.

with the excpetions of alpha++ status cities NYC/LA, and odd-ball legacy stuff like cubs/sox, the multi-team metros seam much more oriented to the polycentric places, where different teams carve out different sub-regions for themselves. hell, even in NYC and LA, some of the teams are divided among geographic sub-regions, like the devils in jersey, the rangers in the city, and the islanders on long island (i know they currently play in barclays, but they're moving back out to the burbs soon enough) or LA with the dogers and kings being an LA thing while the Angels and ducks are more of an OC thing.

i feel that chicago is too centralized for a 2nd team in any of the major sports. what sub-region would a 2nd team carve out for itself? all 6 of chicago's major league teams play in stadiums within 5 miles of downtown chicago. there are no other "centers" in chicagoland that could really support major league sports. the Fire tried the suburban stadium thing and failed miserably. they eventually came limping back to soldier field after 13 unlucky years lost in the suburban wilderness.

chicagoland really is the ultimate "put all of your eggs in one basket" metro area in the nation.
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #35  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2019, 4:13 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I can attest to that. I was staying in New Jersey earlier this year and wanted to take in an MLB game in NYC with my family and the logistics (either by car or transit) for getting to and from an evening game were just a nightmare. I realize that it's a huge metro and that it takes time to get around but the % of my late afternoon and evening that would have been eaten up by this was just too much.
Yup, this is the issue. I don't see how anyone living in NJ can take in a Yankees or Mets game on a normal weekday. It's pretty much impossible unless you block off half the day.

Maybe if you live very close-in, you could take a train, bus or ferry to Manhattan, and a subway to either stadium, but that would still be a long day. By car the GW Bridge is terrible for 7 PM weeknight games.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #36  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2019, 4:16 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 9,787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
It's not really decentralized, though. Around 7.5 million NJ residents live within 50 miles of Manhattan. There's also nearly another million folks in NY State west of Hudson, with the same regional accessibility issues. Most of the rest of NJ is nearly empty, excepting the 1 million people around Philly.

I don't think it's the greatest location for a team, but I think it could plausibly work, given the insane congestion on the GW Bridge. The same doesn't hold for the other sports given that the NFL, NHL and MLS are already in NJ, and NBA is easily accessible for NJ residents, since MSG and Barclays are both reached by subway connecting to PATH and NJ Transit.

Baseball is the only major sport where 8 million+ people (Northern/Central NJ and adjacent parts NY State) are blocked from easy accessibility. There's no cross-Hudson transit easily serving the Yankees or Mets, and GW Bridge is hell for cars.
On the other hand, we all have to go to NJ to watch an NFL game. Seems fair to me.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #37  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2019, 4:19 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
On the other hand, we all have to go to NJ to watch an NFL game. Seems fair to me.
Right, but the Meadowlands is easily accessible by rail from NY State. The same is not true for either baseball stadium from NJ.

If you're coming from, say, LI, you can take LIRR to Penn, and NJ Transit to Meadowlands. The agencies bundle the tickets and coordinate the schedules. You can buy NJ Transit from LIRR app (or ticket machine) and vice-versa.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #38  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2019, 4:19 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
On the other hand, we all have to go to NJ to watch an NFL game. Seems fair to me.
The Meadowlands is much more easily accessible from NYC than the Yankees/Mets are from NJ though.
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #39  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2019, 4:22 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 9,787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
The Meadowlands is much more easily accessible from NYC than the Yankees/Mets are from NJ though.
From Manhattan or Staten Island, yes. From everywhere else? No. And the transit options to get to the Meadowlands suck.

Then what about the 3 million people out on Long Island.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #40  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2019, 4:26 PM
Handro Handro is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
i don't see it.

with the excpetions of alpha++ status cities NYC/LA, and odd-ball legacy stuff like cubs/sox, the multi-team metros seam much more oriented to the polycentric places, where different teams carve out different sub-regions for themselves. hell, even in NYC and LA, some of the teams are divided among geographic sub-regions, like the devils in jersey, the rangers in the city, and the islanders on long island (i know they currently play in barclays, but they're moving back out to the burbs soon enough) or LA with the dogers and kings being an LA thing while the Angels and ducks are more of an OC thing.

i feel that chicago is too centralized for a 2nd team in any of the major sports. what sub-region would a 2nd team carve out for itself? all 6 of chicago's major league teams play in stadiums within 5 miles of downtown chicago. there are no other "centers" in chicagoland that could really support major league sports. the Fire tried the suburban stadium thing and failed miserably. they eventually came limping back to soldier field after 13 unlucky years lost in the suburban wilderness.

chicagoland really is the ultimate "put all of your eggs in one basket" metro area in the nation.
You're probably right that a second NBA has about a .001% chance of coming to Chicago, but of the four major sports I'd say it's the most likely (i.e. compared to 0% for NFL or MLB and .0001% for NHL).

I'm basing it anecdotally on conversations I've had throughout Chicagoland and the dwindling attendance (after years of league-leading attendance despite shitty play). People don't give a shit about the Bulls anymore, and this is a basketball city. With the right placement of a new stadium, some stellar marketing, and some luck in the draft they could (theoretically) become the Sox/Mets/Clippers/Jets to the Chicago Bulls.

And yea, D-Rose is one of hte worst sports stories this city has ever seen. He was something special



The only place to be newly minted as a two-franchise city in any sport in the last 50-odd years is Los Angeles when the Rams (basically a legacy team for LA, despite moving) were joined by the Los Angeles (née San Diego) Chargers. (Not counting the Nets move from Jersey to Brooklyn, that's basically just a new stadium for the same team.)

Los Angeles is a giant market, both in population and reach, yet the Chargers are laughably unpopular in the city and there are already whispers that they will need to be moved again, although San Diego absolutely despises the owners now so they sorta screwed themselves out of a move back to their home city.

If LA can't handle a second franchise in the nation's most popular sport, I don't see how any city can add another franchise.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 3:30 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.