"New West" Does Not Include Manitoba; Province Seen as an Economic Weakling

[Markus41]

Originally Posted by drew

Can you please point out where in my response I called anyone a liar, or denied anything?

Your response simply backs up my last point, you are basing your entire opinion on Winnipeg on secondhand information, it's certainly not the "truth".

If you are so concerned about the well being of this city, why don't you come for a visit and view just how "bad" or "good" this city is for yourself.

It seems to me that you enjoy mining any little knock on Winnipeg that someone writes in this forum for all it's worth.

No one in this forum lives in some urban utopia where everything is perfect. Instead of always coming around this forum to stir shit up and blabber on about what your buddy in Winnipeg says, why don't you strive to make where ever you live perfect. Once it's there, by all means, come post your deep knowledge to us poor 'Peggers.

I'm only concerned with the truth. And I will actually be visiting the city in August or September, and I look forward to evaluating what is actually going on in Winnipeg, and I will find out first hand if what actual Winnipeggers are telling me is the truth, or as you indirectly put it, lies. I somehow think you are wearing rosy colored glasses and are trying to sweep the native issue under the rug as it is bad publicity for Winnipeg, but in actuality it is most likely a very big part of what is wrong with Winnipeg.

[DAVEinEDMONTON]

WOW!!! All that great economic data available as provided by SASKFTW to comment on and everyone in this thread seems to be in a pissing match about the native factor affecting Winnipeg...really...the whole argument is in really bad taste and just leads to more ignorance. If crime is an issue in Winnipeg I bet, like everywhere else, the punks, thugs and drug dealers that hang around downtown Winnipeg come in all shapes, sizes, colors and nationalities. The big issue is how a city chooses to handle the inner city crime that makes the difference...maybe Winnipeg needs a few more beat cops on the streets, or private security at the local downtown malls, or the Guardian Angels to keep the petty criminals out of downtown. The downtown perhaps could also use a comprehensive plan of action to address the situation that the city, police and the business community coud all back. Set up a downtown business development zone and charge the businesses for the necessary security.

[Ruckus]

One mans perception is another mans denial; one mans truth is another mans exaggeration...

Markus41 has demonstrated curiosity and a willingness to engage.

Drew, perhaps you can provide us with a more accurate portrayal of Manitoba's and Winnipeg's struggle with their respective aboriginal populations?

My knowledge on this topic is fragmented at best. Fortunately, we have think tanks and government agencies gathering, analyzing and developing strategies to address social issues associated with our urban aboriginal populations.

Similarly to Manitoba, Saskatchewan has it's fair share of aboriginal reserve and urban issues, well, more than it's fair share when compared with the rest of Canada.

Related research:
Hard Times: A Portrait of Street Level Social Issues in Western Canada
Caring Cities? Public Opinion and Urban Social Issues in Western Canadian Cities


I searched Canada West Foundation's website for research relating to urban social issues. After locating some relevant studies, I searched "aboriginal" within the PDF document. Below is a selection of the search results.

Originally Posted by Hard Times: A Portrait of Street Level Social Issues in Western Canada

Street gang activity in Edmonton was identified as a growing problem in the city. One participant explained that “gangs in Edmonton are diverse and include everything from organized crime such as the Hells Angels to street gangs.” Another participant added that “the different types of gangs are connected and the Aboriginal street gangs are doing the dirty work for organized crime.”

Source - Edmonton - Street Gang Activity - Page 16

Originally Posted by Hard Times: A Portrait of Street Level Social Issues in Western Canada

Street level prostitution was identified as evident in several of Regina’s inner city neighbourhoods. While street prostitution is considered to be a large problem, it is not generally perceived to be a growing problem. Several consultation participants noted the link between prostitution, drug activity and gangs. The overrepresentation of the Aboriginal population in street prostitution was also noted.

[...]

In addition, the consultation discussions covered a number of other topics that are not street level social problems. These issues include the high rates of poverty, especially child poverty, in the inner city; young children not attending school; breakdown of the family; lack of access to healthy food, which contributes to hunger and malnutrition; a deterioration of spirituality; youth violence; health issues due to prostitution and drug use; fetal alcohol spectrum disorder (FASD); Aboriginal unemployment; mental illness; over-incarceration of Aboriginal youth; lower educational levels among the Aboriginal population; and a lack of social housing.

Source - Regina - Prostitution; Other Issues - Page 19

Originally Posted by Hard Times: A Portrait of Street Level Social Issues in Western Canada

Many of the consultation participants commented on an “east-west divide” in the city. As one participant put it, “Saskatoon is a city divided—the river is a visual divide. The east side of the city is affluent and the west side, especially the inner city, is not well off. This divide is historic and reflects the old division back in the times of the Temperance Colonies.” This division is reported to be not only geographic, but also racial: “generally speaking, the river divides the population by race with Aboriginals, new immigrants, and refugees living on the west side, and the more affluent Caucasian community on the east.”

Source - Current situation in Saskatoon - Page 19

Originally Posted by Hard Times: A Portrait of Street Level Social Issues in Western Canada

The issue of gang activity—both street level gangs (primarily Aboriginal) and gangs that represent organized crime (Hell’s Angels)—was a common concern. “Gang activity is happening, but it is difficult to track and to know how many people are involved because of the subculture and underground nature of gangs. This makes it tough to gauge the scope of the problems.” Participants also expressed concern about the role of children in gang activity.

Source - Saskatoon - Street Gang Activity and Street Drug Activity - Page 20

Originally Posted by Hard Times: A Portrait of Street Level Social Issues in Western Canada

A number of people we consulted identified the backlog of people and the problems that are being created by this backlog. Specifically, one participant noted that, “people are staying longer in subsidized housing. This used to be a stepping stone, but now it is becoming semi-permanent housing for some families.” As a result, demand is reported to be increasing, but the supply is not. Adding to the shortage of available affordable units, discrimination and racism were identified by several participants. As one participant put it, “there is a level of discrimination in the housing market as some landlords in the city won’t rent to Aboriginal people. This makes available units unavailable for people who need them.”

Source - Saskatoon - Homelessness - Page 21

Originally Posted by Hard Times: A Portrait of Street Level Social Issues in Western Canada

Although not specifically street level social problems, the following issues were also raised in Saskatoon: the transition from on-reserve life to city life for young Aboriginal people; violence and the perpetuation of violence, particularly among youth; pressures placed on the school systems; family breakdown; and the generational cycle of poverty.

Source - Saskatoon - Other Issues - Page 22

Originally Posted by Hard Times: A Portrait of Street Level Social Issues in Western Canada

Youth gang involvement was a common point of discussion. As one participant explained, “many Aboriginals are born into gang membership. It is like a family business in this sense, and there is an intimate relationship between the reserves and the city, connected by gangs, and drugs trafficked between the two locations.” Gang life is seen to be linked to both generational patterns of family problems and social marginalization: “these youth are not integrated, and many are marginalized by poverty as well, so their risk of becoming gang involved is high, because they do not have a lot of options.”

Source - Winnipeg - Street Gang Activity - Page 23

Originally Posted by Hard Times: A Portrait of Street Level Social Issues in Western Canada

Street level social problems are reported to affect a wide variety of social groups. The people involved in street level social problems are not a homogenous group and include, for example, youth, seniors, and families. Aboriginal peoples were identified by participants as overrepresented in all street level social problems. Participants in all six cities stressed the need for the public to remember that behind each of the problems are human beings each with their own stories, and that the homeless and sex trade workers are people, not just “problems,” and deserve to be treated with dignity and respect.

Source - Summary: The Current Situation in Western Canada - Page 25-26

Originally Posted by Hard Times: A Portrait of Street Level Social Issues in Western Canada

Many participants expressed concerns about the effect on public social values. A Calgary participant noted that “tolerance is decreasing” and a Vancouver participant reported that a “lack of empathy is growing.” The “us versus them” mentality is also associated with growing racism. According to one Saskatoon participant, how people perceive street level social problems “increases racism—especially toward Aboriginals.” As a result, “people and neighbourhoods are stigmatized.”

Source - Risk of Social Fragmentation - Page 27

In addition to the above quotations, each one of us may have personal experience relating to urban aboriginal issues. As well, we can draw from other sources, including those of our family members, friends, co-workers.

The more information the better, and extra points if clear connections can be made between social elements and social circumstances.

I won't go into solutions, except to say we have much work to do.

[204]

Originally Posted by Tower Crane

Just like I thought, nothing there......because essentially both provinces are as diverse as each other.

Err. No. Manitoba has the most diversified manufacturing sector in Western Canada.

[drew]

Originally Posted by SASKFTW

Markus41 has demonstrated curiosity and a willingness to engage.

Drew, perhaps you can provide us with a more accurate portrayal of Manitoba's and Winnipeg's struggle with their respective aboriginal populations?

Demonstrated curiosity and a willingness to engage? Really. I would bet if his multi-paragraph diatribe about Winnipeg had substituted "Saskatoon" or "Regina" or "Saskatchewan" he would have had about a half dozen or so of forumers from that area responding, and not nearly as fairly as I did.

Why should I try to provide this thread with more BS about aboriginals? This thread is about economics not sociology.

[h0twired]

Originally Posted by 204

Err. No. Manitoba has the most diversified manufacturing sector in Western Canada.

With a GDP is so small... it's easy to be diverse.

[Tower Crane]

Originally Posted by 204

Err. No. Manitoba has the most diversified manufacturing sector in Western Canada.

Wow, of the cities it looks like Edmonton tops everyone in the West.

[Greco Roman]

Originally Posted by Tower Crane

Wow, of the cities it looks like Edmonton tops everyone in the West.

Well, Edmonton didn't exactly clobber Winnipeg, did they?

But at least both cities are much more diverse than Calgary

[TSN]

Originally Posted by Greco Roman

Well, Edmonton didn't exactly clobber Winnipeg, did they?

But at least both cities are much more diverse than Calgary

The original discussion involved a comparison of the two PROVINCES..........somebody decided to put their own spin on it.

[Greco Roman]

Originally Posted by TSN

The original discussion involved a comparison of the two PROVINCES..........somebody decided to put their own spin on it.

Very True.

[Ruckus]

Originally Posted by drew

Demonstrated curiosity and a willingness to engage? Really. I would bet if his multi-paragraph diatribe about Winnipeg had substituted "Saskatoon" or "Regina" or "Saskatchewan" he would have had about a half dozen or so of forumers from that area responding, and not nearly as fairly as I did.

You're absolutely correct; an exchange of ignorance and enlightenment

Originally Posted by drew

Why should I try to provide this thread with more BS about aboriginals?

Bullshit opens the door for enlightenment and awareness, an increased understanding of the underlying issues.

If you prefer/choose to shy away from ignorance and misunderstanding you should only expect more of the same in future discussions.

My sole intention for responding was to open the topic up to those not familiar with it (myself included). I saw an opportunity for exchange, and perhaps a chance to learn from Winnipeg on the topic of urban aboriginals and associated economic impacts.

Originally Posted by drew

This thread is about economics not sociology.

As the thread title suggests, economics is the main topic...and as a source of economic value (labor) and economic cost (health/social services, policing), all contributions provided by Winnipeg's growing aboriginal population can and should be referenced in the context of Winnipeg's and Manitoba's economic profile.

Economics alone fails to further our knowledge of economics.

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by h0twired

With a GDP is so small... it's easy to be diverse.

That statement makes aboluteley no sense.. are you suggesting larger GDP economies have less opportunity to diversify?? I would seriously rethink that statement.

While Alberta's is primarily a one industry economy.... there are many examples of larger economies which are much more diversified.

The fact is Manitoba has interests in many industries, which protects it from hard economic downfalls. Agriculture, Mining, Manufacturing, Transportation and Finance are some of the key economic drivers in Manitoba.

Also note that the manufacturing in Manitoba is red hot at the moment. Boeing Canada (HQ in Winnipeg) just opened its second plant in Rivercity.. Newflyer Industries is pumping out busses at full capacity, with a significant number of orders in the books and considering further expansion, Palliser Furniture is also growing its business in Manitoba. There has been very little to no downturn in this sector in Manitoba, regardless what misinformation the CBC(Edmonton) seems to think.
The reality is Manitoba is leading Canada in Capital Expendature growth.

[drew]

Originally Posted by SASKFTW

Bullshit opens the door for enlightenment and awareness, an increased understanding of the underlying issues.

If you prefer/choose to shy away from ignorance and misunderstanding you should only expect more of the same in future discussions.

My sole intention for responding was to open the topic up to those not familiar with it (myself included). I saw an opportunity for exchange, and perhaps a chance to learn from Winnipeg on the topic of urban aboriginals and associated economic impacts.

I am really not sure where you are going here. I took offense to a post based purely on speculation and secondhand views, and offered that perhaps the person who wrote it should experience the city for himself and then come back to us.

I didn't deny anything.

I didn't call him or anyone else a liar, and that was never inferred in any of my responses.

I have no in depth knowledge on Aboriginals or their place in our society, so therefore I will try to do my part to limit the "I think" stuff on this somewhat sensitive topic in this thread.

That's it.

[socialisthorde]

Originally Posted by newflyer

There has been very little to no downturn in this sector in Manitoba, regardless what misinformation the CBC(Edmonton) seems to think.
The reality is Manitoba is leading Canada in Capital Expendature growth.

Once again, it was not the CBC, it was Stelmach. CBC is only reporting what he said.

[trueviking]

we are missing one key point in this entire debate.....edmonton sucks.

[Greco Roman]

Originally Posted by trueviking

we are missing one key point in this entire debate.....edmonton sucks.

Nah; Calgary sucks more

[trueviking]

that goes without saying...

[DAVEinEDMONTON]

... Edmonton sucks......no...Calgary sucks more...

Boys...your comments are really getting...

[drew]

^ now if I could only find that "tongue-in-cheek" smiley face...

[Greco Roman]

Originally Posted by DAVEinEDMONTON

... Edmonton sucks......no...Calgary sucks more...

Boys...your comments are really getting...

So are statments made by blowhard Albertans like Stelmach to the media, but I guess it's ok for that province to make cheapshot statements; apparently free speech reigns supreme.