SkyCity Centre Winnipeg | 45F | 575 Ft | 175.26 M | Cancelled

[BigG]

Welcome to the forum NorthStarProject. I just want to say that, personally for me, it's just a wait and see. I would certainly love to see SkyCity come to fruition. If it doesn't, then all the naysayers can say, " I told you so." Including yourself. But you definitely made a lot of claims and negative statements here. Sure wish you could make a stronger argument by substantiating your claims. Here are some examples of your own statements, "public has not heard about yet", "I was told","I assume","I know from recent discussion". All pretty vague. And then you follow up with, "I guarantee" and "This will not happen". I don't know - definitely not Simplicity's style.

[Finessing]

Originally Posted by OakbluffMB

If you check out the links from TwoScents, looks like the CEO of Edenshaw had a prominent career at Concord Adex overseeing construction of 20 towers worth $3 billion dollars.

"I ended up taking on the responsibilities of Vice-President of Construction, but quickly evolved into overseeing the development company and soon thereafter, overseeing the entire operations of the company within a matter of a couple of years."

Doesn't seem like the kinda of guy that would jump on a sinking ship?

There is a difference between a prominent individual and a prominent company. Obviously the CEO has a ton of experience and it served him well in completing Chaz Yorkville in Toronto. That's a serious undertaking, unlike the mickey mouse rental building Edenshaw did recently. However, he's done one building as Edenshaw that is comparable to SkyCity. It's not like Tridel or Great Gulf or somebody like that is jumping into the ring with Fortress. It's a company that has one condo development to their name. All that said, I'm not ragging on Edenshaw as they look like they actually know how to develop, unlike Fortress who literally have ZERO expertise and experience.

Ellis-Don and other legitimate companies have attached their names to this project, and other Fortress projects. That doesn't mean it will happen. And it certainly doesn't mean that Fortress isn't selling snake oil.

We don't know the terms of the deal with Edenshaw or what the plan is. What other developer do you know that adds a "co-developer" at this stage of a development? For what reason?

[Pinus]

The trolls are out in FULL force today I see.

I do agree with a previous statement that these people are likely competitor developers looking to undermine this project. Classic "fight" reaction.

[Finessing]

Originally Posted by Pinus

The trolls are out in FULL force today I see.

I do agree with a previous statement that these people are likely competitor developers looking to undermine this project. Classic "fight" reaction.

I can only speak for myself, but this is both inaccurate and an ad hominem fallacy.

[Pinus]

Originally Posted by Finessing

I can only speak for myself, but this is both inaccurate and an ad hominem fallacy.

From everything you and others like you have said this far, you've demonstrated otherwise.

[Wolf13]

Seriously, why is everyone so bent out of shape? Leave the emotions aside and let the circumstances speak clearly.

I'm not a hater, I'm a realist; I want this to go ahead but it doesn't look great.

Originally Posted by design25

All this talk of doubts is getting tiresome. SkyCity is right on schedule from when they first opened the sales centre. It's all right there in the contract. Start digging in spring 2017. They've already done the preliminary core drilling to see what the soil is comprised of... on schedule. And before someone jumps down my throat, my deposit money is being held in trust by a very respectable law firm in the city.

Nothing is on schedule. Just because a milestone date (construction start) hasn't expired yet does not mean anything is on schedule. Unfortunately, Fortress reputation lends to believe a delay, which is actually normal in construction, awaits

The WFP today mentioned that the sales team claimed to have "sold over 50%"... but the developers say they still "need" to sell a few more.

WFP claimed that the 60,000 of office condos "only now have come to market", but it appears to me like that was a half-baked plan to help increase the residential sales %, which went up as a result with no extra sales. To me it seems like they're throwing darts blindfolded and hoping something sticks.

Originally Posted by The Jabroni

You know, I was reserved in saying anything about this project. With all the kerfuffle that's going on with this project, I'm not going to get involved, and rightfully so, mainly because they're out of my league.

Having said that, I'm being cautiously optimistic here and saying that this will get built in some form or another. Whether construction actually starts this spring, we'll have to wait and see.

It seems like a lot of people are saying it will get "done sooner or later", and I hope so, but we don't know how long this grant discussion, which drives or kills this project, will be allowed to sit on the counter.

Originally Posted by Finessing

Fortress themselves said this project won't go ahead unless they get a concession from the city on the grant.

.

Everyone is forgetting this point above.

Originally Posted by NorthStarsProject

These clowns tried to pull a Springfield Monorail and good for our city to halt these actions before it was too late.

Leaving this for a reminder...

Originally Posted by lilwayne

This guy is a complete moron downsized they sold almost all thier top Floors.. Ya let's cut it to twenty floors and lose the project altogether.. Ppl said trump would never be president give them a chance tif spring comes and nothing happens then talk shit.. All this naysayers is bs ppl said d condos would never get built.. You guys talk up your asses

GOODNESS.

STOP.

Every time someone says something negative about Fortress you come along like someone is insulting your dad. No other Wpg developers are attracting the negative attention Fortress are, and unfortunately you points of support are easily and frequently debunked on this matter.

This thing might get built, but if so, by sheer dumb luck. There is little positive credit to be given based on the process so far.

Originally Posted by NorthStarsProject

FYI.

Whoever says that SkyCity sold out all their high end suites are dreaming. They haven't even come close to selling.

I know this for a fact. 50% sold when? who bought them? They claim 50% months ago so I guess not 1 person has bought since then cause that slogan has not changed. They can say 90% but what does that really mean?

They have over 50% sold is like saying Jets tickets are sold out for every game but then magically tickets come available from TNSE on game day aside from those fans reselling their tickets.

If you think 50% are sold you have zero knowledge of how real estate schemes work such as Fortress and Sky City. You have zero knowledge what is really happening with your money that goes into buying these suites.

Similar to what drug money did in Miami when they had their real estate boom 20 yrs ago.

Tier II scenario is also mind blowing but not unexpected. Investors are actually buying into the property units to be resold for a guarantee 4% return until construction complete. Then they are promised 15% for the next 5 yrs or they can sell the unit on their own.

Sad scenario. Unites are not sold. Renters take up occupancy which drives down the value and Condo has disaster 2 years with lower than average approval rating. People will never invest in a condo downtown once its built. It will become a haven for out of town investors who have zero knowledge of the market.

This is why True North is doing it perfectly and is where people should invest to live. They have zero promises to investors. In fact they are not even selling it to investors unlike Sky City. They will roll out a model to the public soon which will provide adequate information and assurance of your living investment. The way it should be done.

Glasshouse is apparently a disaster for investors and already are jumping ship. Its by the far the most beautiful condo in Winnipeg so far but look at the market. Sky City just saturated it by all these fake promises. Small and cheap suites. Glasshouse has 2 worthy models. All other suites are useless and unlivable unless you rent which I am sure in 1 year price will be extremely high. Going as low as $950 for tiny suites. How many do you think really purchased those to live in full-time.

TNSE will beat Sky City in construction (if sky ever gets built) and will reshape the market with pricing and amenities. Sky City will have nothing on both TNSQ and GH. They have lost their anchors and just wait for their big announcement with out announcing the new grocery store chain.

Its only going to get more fun to watch the circus.

You say some good things and some blatant crap things. And how is one to invest in anything in True North anyway? It's rental.

Either way:

1) I too believe and heard from several credible people that the sales figures are grossly exaggerated. It's common practice to exaggerate sales but usually doesn't matter in stronger markets... it's done to stoke further sales, but turns out that's barely happening in Winnipeg. Now it's done just to convince people it will get built and not lose investors

2) Your hockey game comparison makes no sense... you're shooting to much from the hip and some precision could help.

3) 15% return is funny. However, you praised Glasshouse a couple posts ago, now you crap on it. Small suites are the norm in every major downtown highrise market. Glasshouse has em, SkyCity has em, TNS and the Sutton place will have em, 300 Main will have em. It won't be limited to that, but they'll have em. The trend points to this direction.

4) I'm not sure anyone doubted that TNSE is a smoother operation.

5) Regarding amenities, it wouldn't be fair to to give TNS that credit. SkyCity was the first to boast of all the amenities publically from a residential perspective, and 300 Main will be the first to finish construction (should SkyCity even get built) with these amenities. Ironically, they get that credit.

Originally Posted by Only The Lonely..

Dicks are getting stomped hard in this thread!

Everyone relax and see where this all goes.

A prominent Toronto highrise developer joining up with Fortress should be taken as a vote of confidence in the project.

Let it play out.

To me, the involvement of another developer is sketchy, despite the increased probability of construction. This is because before they came on board, Fortress' boasts were just as loud (50% sold!) and clearly more help was needed.

Originally Posted by Twoscents

Simplicity was not smart.

He only seemed smart to people that don't know anything about real estate. He was just angry at anyone that didn't believe all his mumbo jumbo.

Anyway, Mr New guy seems very similiar: angry, angry, angry! and p.s. buy at True North Square. You related to Mark Chipman?

I googled this Edenshaw developer, here are a couple links on David McComb http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2012/02/interview-david-mccomb-edenshaw-homes

He is a Virgo http://news.buzzbuzzhome.com/2010/09...interview.html

the last project he did was a rental with Sun Life Financial called Alto https://clean50.com/project/sun-life...t-development/

Either you're a wonderfully eloquent joker, or the virgo thing just shot down your credibility as well

Who cares how blatantly biased North Stars is?

Everyone should be trying to see THROUGH the smoke, whether his or SkyCity's... and when you observe objectively, half of North Stars comments are not off. The rest are all over the place, but there is truth in there.


Lastly, regarding the anger... the only reason some here get frustrated is because of the cringe-worthy fanboyism that pops up from time to time.

Some posters WANT this project more than their brain should allow, and it shows in the responses. I TOO want this project but cannot shake the reality of the circus it's become.

Originally Posted by OakbluffMB

Doesn't seem like the kinda of guy that would jump on a sinking ship?

Depends on how wecure his money is in this... we don't know if it means anything...

Originally Posted by LilZebra

What does True North and North Stars Project have in common? The word 'North'.

If NorthStarsProject is somehow related to True North company, does that make that user a "shill" or a "troll"? Because NorthStarsProject "just appeared out of nowhere" recently to shit on the SkyCity project because they are in some ways a competitor.

That's what I think.

I'm going to say something cynical...

Maybe he is a pro-TNSE troll. But IO can guarantee you that not a single soul at TNSE, Sutton, or Artis is worried about SkyCity as competitors. In fact, they all WANT a critical mass downtown.

But even if they didn't, and life or death depended on a SkyCity/TNSE showdown, not one person at TNSE is worried. They will be done 2+ years beforehand and they and Artis will have first crack at a new market.

Here come the cynical part...

I talk to a lot of real estate professionals (I'm in financial services, dabbled in real estate a bit also)... a LARGE amount of the professionals I've dealt with, whether builders, developers, architects, leasing agents or realtors, a large amount of them all say "highly unlikely" when the topic of SkyCity comes up. The best I've heard is a soft maybe, but there have been more firm "no" votes than that. Again, nobody is threatened by this project and only welcomes it.

The optimisim comes almost entirely from the wishful public and the sales team that feeds them.

Not saying it won't happen. I WANT IT TO HAPPEN. Winnipeg needs people downtown and the tower is sexy. But for once, skyscraperpage.com, ask yourself what the roots of the optimism and skepticism are, and compare them.

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by Pinus

The trolls are out in FULL force today I see.

I do agree with a previous statement that these people are likely competitor developers looking to undermine this project. Classic "fight" reaction.

Every major developer in the city has spoken in strong favour of SkyCity participating in the market. They want that mass downtown. TNS would benefit greatly from an additional 500+ people near their PUBLIC square and retail. Similarly, the proximity to 300 Main and the indoor walkway system only helps Artis and their commercial axctivity.

TNS and 300 Main will be done 2 years before SkyCity at this rate, and are rental units... so their only competition is rented investor units, which won't have a tenant until much later. From a retail perspective, both are more connected to nearby office space and their own towers.

The progress of skycity benefits a critical mass in Winnipeg that would only help establish Winnipeg's downtown further, something all majore DT landlords want.

The only issue some have here is the disrespect for the process and the potential consumer.

[BigG]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

Seriously, why is everyone so bent out of shape? Leave the emotions aside and let the circumstances speak clearly.

I'm not a hater, I'm a realist; I want this to go ahead but it doesn't look great.



Nothing is on schedule. Just because a milestone date (construction start) hasn't expired yet does not mean anything is on schedule. Unfortunately, Fortress reputation lends to believe a delay, which is actually normal in construction, awaits

The WFP today mentioned that the sales team claimed to have "sold over 50%"... but the developers say they still "need" to sell a few more.

WFP claimed that the 60,000 of office condos "only now have come to market", but it appears to me like that was a half-baked plan to help increase the residential sales %, which went up as a result with no extra sales. To me it seems like they're throwing darts blindfolded and hoping something sticks.



It seems like a lot of people are saying it will get "done sooner or later", and I hope so, but we don't know how long this grant discussion, which drives or kills this project, will be allowed to sit on the counter.



Everyone is forgetting this point above.



Leaving this for a reminder...

GOODNESS.

STOP.

Every time someone says something negative about Fortress you come along like someone is insulting your dad. No other Wpg developers are attracting the negative attention Fortress are, and unfortunately you points of support are easily and frequently debunked on this matter.

This thing might get built, but if so, by sheer dumb luck. There is little positive credit to be given based on the process so far.


You say some good things and some blatant crap things. And how is one to invest in anything in True North anyway? It's rental.

Either way:

1) I too believe and heard from several credible people that the sales figures are grossly exaggerated. It's common practice to exaggerate sales but usually doesn't matter in stronger markets... it's done to stoke further sales, but turns out that's barely happening in Winnipeg. Now it's done just to convince people it will get built and not lose investors

2) Your hockey game comparison makes no sense... you're shooting to much from the hip and some precision could help.

3) 15% return is funny. However, you praised Glasshouse a couple posts ago, now you crap on it. Small suites are the norm in every major downtown highrise market. Glasshouse has em, SkyCity has em, TNS and the Sutton place will have em, 300 Main will have em. It won't be limited to that, but they'll have em. The trend points to this direction.

4) I'm not sure anyone doubted that TNSE is a smoother operation.

5) Regarding amenities, it wouldn't be fair to to give TNS that credit. SkyCity was the first to boast of all the amenities publically from a residential perspective, and 300 Main will be the first to finish construction (should SkyCity even get built) with these amenities. Ironically, they get that credit.



To me, the involvement of another developer is sketchy, despite the increased probability of construction. This is because before they came on board, Fortress' boasts were just as loud (50% sold!) and clearly more help was needed.



Either you're a wonderfully eloquent joker, or the virgo thing just shot down your credibility as well

Who cares how blatantly biased North Stars is?

Everyone should be trying to see THROUGH the smoke, whether his or SkyCity's... and when you observe objectively, half of North Stars comments are not off. The rest are all over the place, but there is truth in there.


Lastly, regarding the anger... the only reason some here get frustrated is because of the cringe-worthy fanboyism that pops up from time to time.

Some posters WANT this project more than their brain should allow, and it shows in the responses. I TOO want this project but cannot shake the reality of the circus it's become.



Depends on how wecure his money is in this... we don't know if it means anything...



I'm going to say something cynical...

Maybe he is a pro-TNSE troll. But IO can guarantee you that not a single soul at TNSE, Sutton, or Artis is worried about SkyCity as competitors. In fact, they all WANT a critical mass downtown.

But even if they didn't, and life or death depended on a SkyCity/TNSE showdown, not one person at TNSE is worried. They will be done 2+ years beforehand and they and Artis will have first crack at a new market.

Here come the cynical part...

I talk to a lot of real estate professionals (I'm in financial services, dabbled in real estate a bit also)... a LARGE amount of the professionals I've dealt with, whether builders, developers, architects, leasing agents or realtors, a large amount of them all say "highly unlikely" when the topic of SkyCity comes up. The best I've heard is a soft maybe, but there have been more firm "no" votes than that. Again, nobody is threatened by this project and only welcomes it.

The optimisim comes almost entirely from the wishful public and the sales team that feeds them.

Not saying it won't happen. I WANT IT TO HAPPEN. Winnipeg needs people downtown and the tower is sexy. But for once, skyscraperpage.com, ask yourself what the roots of the optimism and skepticism are, and compare them.

Now that's a good frickin read. Bravo Wolf13.

[Riverman]

^

[Cyro]

Entertaining 3 page read busy, busy thread. In some ways highly informative in others repetition of the same material over and over again. Have at it but please don't push it to the trolling level. Opinions may vary. Let's see what spring brings us.

[roccerfeller]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

....

Not saying it won't happen. I WANT IT TO HAPPEN. Winnipeg needs people downtown and the tower is sexy. But for once, skyscraperpage.com, ask yourself what the roots of the optimism and skepticism are, and compare them.

Exactly. Well said


Sky City's success would do so much for downtown Winnipeg and for everyone involved in trying to make Winnipeg's downtown a more attractive, better place to invest and it would certainly add a lot of bodies downtown which is never a bad thing. I too want it to happen. We all do. We all should.


But Wolf said it perfectly, I think, in that last sentence..."roots of optimism and skepticism...and compare.."

There is reason to have skepticism for this project. Unfortunately. More reason for skepticism, based on the realities. I would love to see it go through, but until this tower is actually U/C, above grade with a crane on site, I will remain a skeptic. I pointed out why I am hopeful for them to go through in earlier posts, I wasn't even living in Winnipeg when this project was announced and i was still hopeful then too....but I can't ignore the "smoke" either. I will continue to hope for it's success because of what it would mean for downtown in the Peg, but there is genuine cause for skepticism. And that shouldn't be ignored by even the staunchest proponents.

Consider how long their project in Regina has been announced, and it's been a thing there since 2009....it is now 2017!! And it's just a big hole in the ground. We have all had so many changes in our own lives from 2009 until now...thats a long time to announce a project with only a hole to show for.

[trueviking]

I would like to add some clarity about the Grant that was misrepresented in the free press. It is the TIF that every residential project downtown has received in the last decade. There is nothing outside the norm about it. The Artis project will also get it. True North Square got exponentially more than that.

The issue with missing the deadline is not uncommon. The two year timeframe imposed by the province isn't realistic for big projects and is even difficult for smaller projects in slow growing Winnipeg. Many developers are facing this isssue.

When they say they need the TIF to be successful, this is no different than any other downtown project. They all need the TIF. Every single one.

The request to get the TIF in one lump sum instead of paid out over time is completely acceptable. That was an option to any developer getting the DRDG grant.

I'm not sure what will happen but the facts need to straightened about the Grant thing.

[NorthStarsProject]

You are correct about subsidizing for downtown development for other projects but wrong they were in need of it to complete the project.


Both glasshouse and TNSQ did not need the grant to get it done.

------

Also. The project with Fortress can not get complete without other investors and nobody wants to invest with these clowns.

People that come on here that have their feelings hurt likely work for Sky City who are paid to come on here to get people interested.

No intelligent investor or man/woman who wants to live downtown can take Sky City seriously.

What I know from facts from inside information is that if Sky City gets down it wont be Fortress building it. Also. Fortress can not be trusted for various reasons just dig for their lawsuits. Part of their problem now is their selfish business ways have caught up to them and are trying to pull a springfield monorail to get out of it.

[jmt18325]

I think it would be nice to just talk about the project. If it doesn't happen, whatever. This constant negativity gets annoying.

[NorthStarsProject]

The #1 reason why Fortress wants the grant money up front is so they take the money to pay off other dues coming from legal lawsuits and project investors. Then they will come back and say they can not get the project done until 2021 completion or 2022 and they will try to transfer funds from another project or try to find another sucker investor.

They will build up to a certain grade and then halt construction or sign off the project to another developer.

This has happened so many times with awful developers. Or large companies that cease operations due to unfortunate financial cutbacks.

If it happened in Las Vegas. It can happen in Winnipeg.

[Biff]

Fortress is not asking for the TIF money up front. They are asking for a lump sum at the completion of the project - not in installments.

[Ando]

Originally Posted by Riverman

He was a very knowledgeable fellow who got booed off here because he knew what he was talking about.

Actually, he was a complete f-tard who wreaked havoc and ruined the forum. But I know you related strongly to him.

[Wolf13]

Thanks for the kind words, folks! After I posted it I wondered "who's gonna read all that shit?"

Originally Posted by trueviking

I would like to add some clarity about the Grant that was misrepresented in the free press. It is the TIF that every residential project downtown has received in the last decade. There is nothing outside the norm about it. The Artis project will also get it. True North Square got exponentially more than that.

The issue with missing the deadline is not uncommon. The two year timeframe imposed by the province isn't realistic for big projects and is even difficult for smaller projects in slow growing Winnipeg. Many developers are facing this isssue.

When they say they need the TIF to be successful, this is no different than any other downtown project. They all need the TIF. Every single one.

The request to get the TIF in one lump sum instead of paid out over time is completely acceptable. That was an option to any developer getting the DRDG grant.

I'm not sure what will happen but the facts need to straightened about the Grant thing.

Thanks for that much needed clarity

Originally Posted by NorthStarsProject

You are correct about subsidizing for downtown development for other projects but wrong they were in need of it to complete the project.


Both glasshouse and TNSQ did not need the grant to get it done.

------

Also. The project with Fortress can not get complete without other investors and nobody wants to invest with these clowns.

People that come on here that have their feelings hurt likely work for Sky City who are paid to come on here to get people interested.

No intelligent investor or man/woman who wants to live downtown can take Sky City seriously.

What I know from facts from inside information is that if Sky City gets down it wont be Fortress building it. Also. Fortress can not be trusted for various reasons just dig for their lawsuits. Part of their problem now is their selfish business ways have caught up to them and are trying to pull a springfield monorail to get out of it.

You're all over the place, man. Although sweeping and perhaps too strongly worded, I kinda agree on some levels; I never would invest my money with Fortress.

But you're 1000% wrong on the other projects needing the grant. We have the highest construction costs in the country (sorry everyone for that redundancy). SkyCity costs $200M and has 400 units and needs the grant. Artis is building 400 units and ALREADY has a foundation and parkade, and NEEDS the grant.

TNS did NOT have a foundation and is asking the highest rents in the City's history by a LARGE margin, in a stagnant office market, and will have their apartment finished after Artis finishes theirs... and their project costs 3x as much as 300 main, 2x as much as SkyCity... THEY NEED THE GRANT MORE THAN ANYONE.

Needing the grant does not imply a job not well done. It's merely a mathematical necessity to be successful. Could these projects be completed without the grant? Sure, Artis has lots of money and established infrastructure in place, and TNS has David Thomson (SkyCity wouldn't have happened, nor would Glasshouse). But TNS/300M wouldn't be SUCCESSFUL. Successful businesses don't become just that by pissing away money on expensive vanity towers. If you're saying they have the resources to pull these things off? Technically, yes... but nobody with half a brain would approve this project without the grant.

Originally Posted by NorthStarsProject

The #1 reason why Fortress wants the grant money up front is so they take the money to pay off other dues coming from legal lawsuits and project investors. Then they will come back and say they can not get the project done until 2021 completion or 2022 and they will try to transfer funds from another project or try to find another sucker investor.

They will build up to a certain grade and then halt construction or sign off the project to another developer.

This has happened so many times with awful developers. Or large companies that cease operations due to unfortunate financial cutbacks.

If it happened in Las Vegas. It can happen in Winnipeg.

Technically speaking, everyone wants the money up front

Originally Posted by Biff

Fortress is not asking for the TIF money up front. They are asking for a lump sum at the completion of the project - not in installments.

Which, in the case of condos, is completely reasonable.

Artis or TNS do not mind to receive the grant over time, because they're holding the investment.

Condo developers recycle their cash. That's not sinister, that's how you make your money, you rinse/repeat as often as possible. Since you're not holding your property you only profit from sales, so after you build/sell a project, you need to build/sell ANOTHER otherwise you're just wasting away! The plus side is that if you're good, you can make a pile of cash.

Downside? No passive income and ownership of a value-gaining asset.

That's the plus side to apartments... if you have enough money to keep working AFTER you complete a project, why cash out? Let that money slowly roll in, and do it again. Artis has money to do this (although they're not in the "let's build 100 towers business") and so does TNSE (but not without Thomson/Richardson backing, who surely convinced them to do apts). Downside is you have to pay to play... you have to be able to afford to build and own the asset, not just build and sell it.

So why would SkyCity (let's assume they're a reputable condo developer) wait for cash and put future earnings on hold? They have people to pay!

The way I see it, you do condos until you get rich enough to do apartments. Except condo prices in Toronto and Vancouver have soared so high that it remained more profitable to keep doing condos. That's not the case in Wpg.

Originally Posted by Ando

Actually, he was a complete f-tard who wreaked havoc and ruined the forum. But I know you related strongly to him.

*me-OWW*

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by Ando

Actually, he was a complete f-tard who wreaked havoc and ruined the forum. But I know you related strongly to him.

as much as he was a pain in my ass on here and in my mail box insulting me at times i still rather have him around. i think the reason he disappeared is someone figure out who he was and confronted him or he just didnt like me telling him to take a chill pill yet again when he got worked up.
it was a really hard balance to walkm trying to keep an open discussion going when ur getting personaly attacked from all sides as well... i dunno how many times i allmost banned him for the stuff in my inbox but didnt in the name of open discussion he didnt seem to see it that way and some of u wanted to hang me.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------



as for fortress they are questionable theres tuns of examples in the gta of bait and switch and holes in the ground going back years we cant ignore this fact. plzz guys stop getting in a tizzy cause ur new tallest wet dream is getting bad mouthed ive personally chosen to stay neutral on it till now... but it is a fact and people need to not get their backs up when these facts are mentioned. we need to keep this pressure in the public relm something many of u don't relize is how watched the discussion is on here at the city government and in the media maybe even the province theres been policy that has been born out of the dissucions that happens here

[NorthStarsProject]

Originally Posted by Biff

Fortress is not asking for the TIF money up front. They are asking for a lump sum at the completion of the project - not in installments.

They want the money after the city's required deadline. The city made it clear
now they need to finish the project by the certain date or it will be in installments.

Money transferred will benefit Fortress as its a guaranteed loan and used as such with future business.

The reason why this was done was to protect the city from Fortress playing games and protect the city's valuation of land. Fortress will never get the project up and running by the expected date.