Development Concepts and Ideas

[Townie709]

That's what I would love for "Proposal 23" to look like if such a thing existed

[jeddy1989]

Originally Posted by Townie709

That's what I would love for "Proposal 23" to look like if such a thing existed

I must say though, I'd rather they build it in the west end DT if a proposal 23 exists ... but anywho we'll see

[Townie709]

If it's on the bowrings property, there is no reason not to support it. Bowrings isn't a true heritage building and as long as the fictional "23" had some sort of authentic heritage facade, I would support it 100%. And bowrings is the perfect location for the centerpiece to our skyline

[Chew]

Thanks for the warm welcome, folks!

The art deco buildings compared with Confederation Building are much nicer to my eye. Vancouver city hall is a really nice building, and I too see the similarities to Bullocks Wilshire, but think the BW uses much nicer materials and has nicer architectural details incorporated. It seems like Confederation Building was built wanting to pay homage to art deco style but done on the cheap.

Anyway, I speak strictly as a layperson with an interest in architecture. I look at buildings to appreciate or to criticize from that perspective. Somewhere like Chicago is a place I can visit and have very little negative to say about the buildings in general.

The 60s-70s era in buildings is not a favorite of mine, but there are certainly a whole lot of exceptions to that rule too. I need to check out that book Architype mentioned. I quickly googled it and found a summary with a really nice picture of the Gander airport interior.

Anyway, a little more on topic... I agree with Jeddy on the Montreal proposal. Something like that would look great in the west end of DT.

[jeddy1989]

hey guys, we've talked about this before and council has supported the idea before as well... what do you think about a St. John's Central Library downtown?

The roadblock they ran into a few years ago is of course that libraries are a provincial responsibility.
If we would get the province to back this idea what would you like to see and on which site?

[Townie709]

Originally Posted by jeddy1989

hey guys, we've talked about this before and council has supported the idea before as well... what do you think about a St. John's Central Library downtown?

The roadblock they ran into a few years ago is of course that libraries are a provincial responsibility.
If we would get the province to back this idea what would you like to see and on which site?

I think the idea of a downtown library/cultural center is great. The location that instantly came into my head was the post office building across from 351.

[jeddy1989]

Originally Posted by Townie709

I think the idea of a downtown library/cultural center is great. The location that instantly came into my head was the post office building across from 351.

That would be a Canadian gov building if the post office is in it

would we want it in Downtown East or West?.. it could be a catalyst for some development in the west end DT but would take up space in the limited area that exists

Maybe if proposal '23' does not exist it would be better suited there, could be a landmark building (and not have to be too tall and they could go a bit taller anyways because it's the provincial gov and they do not need it approved)

could be nice to have a grand heritage style on water street morphing into modern on harbour dr.

another site that comes to mind is all that parking that fortis owns on harbour drive.

OR

when they move the courthouse up to the old grace site they could re do the current supreme court building for a central library it's quite large too (however that would be far far far down the road)

[jeddy1989]

anyone know what's at this site? with all the parking?

could be a great place for an iconic central Library with waterfront access and connect it with that park and the war memorial .. could be beautiful

http://binged.it/VafoJY

EDIT: I cannot see any private development happening here because Raymonds and the neighbors would most likely kick up a stink but if it's the NL gov it wouldn't matter

[Copes]

That site could actually be a spectacular extension to the currently existing harbour park. I think Raymond's would get mad about slamming a building infront of their view, but a park... especially if they renovated the pier... that'd be unreal. Could extend all the way to the water.

[Ayreonaut]

Yeah, there's far too little green space in the inner city. I love the idea of expanding that park!

A (relatively) central library doesn't necessarily have to be right downtown either. There's a lot of space next to the Rooms. Maybe that could become a cultural district of sorts, with the province's premier museum/gallery and library right there (not to mention the Basilica). Maybe the RNC could do some sort of 'history of police in Newfoundland' museum with their space as well. I don't know. I think a library should be a stunning modern building (faux historic is never an option for me!), which limits where many would accept it going downtown.

[Marty_Mcfly]

LeMarchant is also a good area for a central library. The old Grace site comes to mind, though I'm sure the new court will be built there.

[mrjanejacobs]

I don't know if this has been discussed yet on the site, but every time I return to St.John's, I am haunted by the MASSIVE parking wasteland to the South-West of the harbour currently being leased to Oceanex (as far as I know). I don't know when the contract expires, hopefully soon - this is prime real estate. In this area, we could develop a whole new downtown district, so that we can simultaneously maintain our historic downtown (to a certain degree) while building up our new downtown. A number of Cities have down this, particularly European ones. Quebec City is a great Canadian example.

We could liberalize height rules here and build high. Not to mention this area is in pretty rough shape and if planned correctly with some rent controlling we could begin to gentrify this area while keeping it affordable for the folks who live around there.

The City would lost business revenues from Oceanex but personally I believe that the benefit of having a huge new area of the downtown to develop is more valuable than the lost revenues. Plus, about 10 years ago, I remember Oceanex intimidated the City into giving them a cheaper lease as they threatened to pull out of the City and relocate to another nearby Harbour. The City was in rough shape economically and couldn't really afford to lose them so they were taken advantage of by Oceanex. More importantly, if Oceanex was to stay, there is NO WAY that they need that huge amount of land simply to park imported vehicles. This is the most impractical and ridiculous use of valuable downtown space I can think of.

Not to mention - IMAGINE the amazing experience of coming into the downtown along Pitts and there are high-rises while you're already about 8 stories up. It would be a pretty memorable/cool experience. There are similar experiences when driving into downtown Toronto.

This area would also, as it is untouched, provide for a grid style downtown about 6-7x3 blocks in a grid formation. So to answer the earlier question about a new mall - I would build it here.

This is the site I am talking about:

[SignalHillHiker]

You're preaching to the choir with that one, MrJane. Great ideas!

We have a Facebook group about it:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Its-H...147129?fref=ts

Not including the parking lot, but other vacant/underused lots in the Downtown West End.

The parking lot should definitely be added.

And I agree, that drive would be VERY cool!

[mrjanejacobs]

Yeah - that's great! haha the West End in general definitely should be developed. I think the Oceanex lot is particularly appealing because it won't block any views and because it's completely untouched so there will be absolutely no conflicts with heritage.

I definitely think the west end as far as the parking lot should be added to the study area. If we can expand it, I would be happy and willing to help promote and lobby on this issue.

[Architype]

That Facebook page looks like it must have been created by one of the forumers here, anyway great idea. I like to think of the West end area suitable for selective redevelopment can eventually include anything as far as Lemarchant Road. I would actually rather see developments like the Tiffany Estates planned for that area; it just makes more sense to build density closer to the core where you can have more services, walkability, and likely more familiar surroundings for the demographic groups they are targeting.

[Townie709]

I agree completely. That horrible parking lot should be developed into a modern extension of downtown. But, I see that as maybe 25 years or more down the road. What I think should happen before we extend further west, is all the land from 351, west to the Deacon Building be rezoned to have a 50m minimum at least. That will help fill in all those slum-ish areas and force developers to build up. If you look at google maps, there is already basically a grid there with many pieces of land that should be demolished and redeveloped.

Here's a diagram I did a few months ago of possible highrise development sites in the west end of downtown between Waldegrave Street and Springdale Street alone. There are also a few more spaces that I overlooked that could be added as well.


West by Newfie97, on Flickr

This is what the area looks like now...




While I do agree that the Oceanex parking lot should be developed, I think we should ensure that we use up all the land we have right now that's closer to the downtown core. I definitely see that area getting developed, just not in the near future.

[Architype]

I know it's been discussed before, but is that parking area really necessary there? I also wonder if much of it is prone to flooding from the river; you might need to build dykes there if that's the case. Unless it is truly needed for actual industrial purposes, it is definitely potential land for development.

[Ayreonaut]

Originally Posted by Architype

That Facebook page looks like it must have been created by one of the forumers here

Yep, and there are three of us running it.

(well, I don't really do anything, but I can)

[AnUrbanLife]

I would love to see that area, Oceanex parking lot, turned into a type of Amsterdam Canal street, with mid and high rise development on both sides of the waterford.

That IMHO would be amazing!

[mrjanejacobs]

I agree the Oceanex area would certainly be a long-term planning initiative.

However, the advantage is that the City already owns this land, all one parcel. Unlike the other areas which are mostly privately owner (I believe, not positive though). Acquiring these parcels is unclear, if at all possible.

Because of this, the parking can be developed just by expiring the contract with Oceanex or terminating the contract. It's also important that the site currently has hardly any building on it which would require deconstruction. Plus the site is perfectly flat. The site also creates a multi-nodal density distribution. In other words, it would HELP put pressure on development in the west part of downtown that bridges the historic downtown to the new downtown (our current study area). Not to mention, it would promote development likewise on the north side of the harbour and the Southside Hills area, to whatever extent possible. The Oceanex parking also will have little view obstruction and as a result would have much less rational opposition (the view-argument is to me, a very valid argument).

Plus the natural topographical elements - the waterford river could be beautifully developed and the enclosure created on both sides by the steep slope of southside hils on one side and the steep developed hill on the opposite side including Victoria Park (an under-utilized park/public space).

Not to mention a more extended downtown would really support the development of a downtown streetcar or similar form of rapid transit. It could have a headway of 5 minutes, carting you through the downtown from the new and to the old.

It's also special because it's so expansive, really rigorous, contemporary design could be realized, integrating a new mall, move theatre, even department stores can be cleverly integrated into a high-density urban block if well-planned while maintaining a constant street-scape with frontages for retail, restaurants, etc. This will help combat a more widely addressed problem of the increasing allure of the big box store.