Does the +15 system make Calgary a better winter city?

[freeweed]

Those planters are just pure evil, and what the city's done as a result is even worse. There's a spot on 3rd St (at 5th Ave) where the planters basically make you walk from one side of the sidewalk to the other - except the city in its infinite wisdom has decided to paint the crosswalk at the extreme edge which really suits neither. So what ends up happening is that pedestrians are sick of being choked up and tangled in those idiot planters, and once past, everyone spreads out and lines up at the curb.

Except whoops! The actual crosswalk is nowhere close to where you'd think it would be, so traffic stops immediately in front of where half of the pedestrians are waiting to cross. And hilarity ensues.

This is a recent thing as of this fall, I believe (it certainly wasn't like that before). With winter no one can see the lines anyway so it's less of an issue, but it's pretty comical to watch in action. Here we have these wonderfully wide sidewalks, insanely pedestrian friendly - and then we royally fuck it all up by a) cramming them with needless obstruction, and b) making crosswalks that are diametrically opposed to how any pedestrian actually walks.

It's one of those things you have to see to believe. I had a cow-orker ranting about this some months ago and then I finally experienced it. It's sheer stupidity.

On the planters themselves - if we have to do this, PUT THEM BY THE STREET. PERIOD. Forcing pedestrians to not only dodge around them, but actually move closer to traffic is one of the most hostile things I've seen in this city. Almost as bad as the "sidewalks" on the north side of 10th Ave.

[Radley77]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

Would there be enough sidewalk space for it to focus on food carts or the like? Basically cart based retail.

I like the idea of cart-based retail; Another thing that kind of would be nice for a street-retail experience would be a couple designated popup ticket vending places. It would be nice if there were somewhere selling tix for everything from Roughneck games to CPO to Theatre Calgary (maybe I'm wrong and this already exists?).

[kw5150]

I like the barclay mall area.....but yes, the disturbingly cluttered, massive, bench-planter-garbage can clusters do take away from it. Never put a garbage can next to a seating area. Keep it at least a few metres away. It is nice to see the green, the flowers and the sculptures but there is definately something wacky about it all. There reall is such an opportunity down there because of all of the 11 am to 1pm sun. What a missed opportunity and a perfect link to eau claire.

They should also be extending Stephen Ave......not the pedestrian area but the look and feel of a vibrant street all the way down to 11st SW.

They should be extending the feel of 17th ave all the way to Stampede....and like someone said, improve the direct link from 17th ave across Mcleod and into the stampede area. That dead end is so anticlimactic.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by Radley77

I like the idea of cart-based retail; Another thing that kind of would be nice for a street-retail experience would be a couple designated popup ticket vending places. It would be nice if there were somewhere selling tix for everything from Roughneck games to CPO to Theatre Calgary (maybe I'm wrong and this already exists?).

That sounds pretty cool as well.

I think some hot drinks carts/trucks might do ok in the winter as well, hot drinks and hot food.
now I want to do a charrette

[Calgarian]

I never use the +15 system as I live and work in the beltline, and when I do go into the CBD, the streets just make so much more sense. Leave the +15 as it is and focus on better street life.

[kw5150]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

I never use the +15 system as I live and work in the beltline, and when I do go into the CBD, the streets just make so much more sense. Leave the +15 as it is and focus on better street life.

How can someone who never uses the +15 system be allowed to comment on the relevance of it? I suggest that you take an afternoon and take a little walkthrough. There is alot going on in there. It is more than just bridges......it is like a city within a city.

I used the +15s today again and they are absolutely packed. Such a neat sight to see. The streets also had many people. I dont see a problem with the balance of both. I think the downtown has something good going on and they should just keep going with it.

[93JC]

I also rarely use the +15s, and walking the streets takes a lot less time, but if it's -35 out and I need to go from the building I work in (in the West End) to, say, Sunlife Plaza I'll take the frickin' +15.

"Leave the +15 as it is and focus on better street life" makes it sound as though you can only focus on one. They're not mutually exclusive. You can have a +15 bridge and still have a better street life. A lack of street life in Calgary has more to do with the buildings and sidewalks themselves.

[DizzyEdge]

I guess my preference initially would be extend the +15 as much as you want, but have it just be a purely pedestrian transportation system, focus on the streets are far as places that people may want to linger. That said the floors that the +15 enter when it gets to buildings are the domain of the building owners so they can fancy that up as much as they wish.

[kw5150]

Well, I am off to a meeting from my office near the Calgary tower. I am not taking a jacket if you know what I mean!

Hint: Im walking through a series of interconnected buildings.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by kw5150

How can someone who never uses the +15 system be allowed to comment on the relevance of it? I suggest that you take an afternoon and take a little walkthrough. There is alot going on in there. It is more than just bridges......it is like a city within a city.

I used the +15s today again and they are absolutely packed. Such a neat sight to see. The streets also had many people. I dont see a problem with the balance of both. I think the downtown has something good going on and they should just keep going with it.

I've used it before, many times. I just find that actually walking outside is much easier, and unless it's -20 outside, the cold doesn't really bother me much.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by 93JC

I also rarely use the +15s, and walking the streets takes a lot less time, but if it's -35 out and I need to go from the building I work in (in the West End) to, say, Sunlife Plaza I'll take the frickin' +15.

"Leave the +15 as it is and focus on better street life" makes it sound as though you can only focus on one. They're not mutually exclusive. You can have a +15 bridge and still have a better street life. A lack of street life in Calgary has more to do with the buildings and sidewalks themselves.

A big part of the reason that street faces of a lot of buildings downtown are so cold and uninviting is that they weren't meant to be inviting as people were taking the +15 to get around downtown, that's where they put the retail and that's where the pedestrian focus went. I think putting emphasis on the streets is more appropriate than expanding the +15 right now.

[93JC]

There are plenty of buildings not connected to the +15 network that have "cold, uninviting" street faces.

I see where you're coming from but I don't believe they're as intertwined as you would lead others to believe. I work in a building on the fringes of the West End with no +15 connection and in my experience the street life here is far less 'vibrant' than a few blocks to the east, despite the fact those buildings are connected to the +15 system.


How do you even define "street life"? What makes one street's 'life' more 'vibrant' than another?

[MichaelS]

This seems like a good thread to ask. Does anyone know when this +15 will get built?


from: http://www.abugovkaspar.com/our_proj...chitecture.htm

It runs from the Penn West Plaza to Gulf Canada Square.

[MR. Cosmopolitan]

Originally Posted by 93JC

How do you even define "street life"? What makes one street's 'life' more 'vibrant' than another?

I think I could answer this question, from what I've seen I would say that there are two very distinct kinds of vibrancies, one that Calgary has a lot in it's downtown and another that nearly completely lacks of. workers' and residents' vibrancy. The first one lasts something like 2 hours a day divided by the 3 rush hours (I count luch time) taking place where the offices are. Calgary has the vibrancy of a 1000000 Euro-city thinking this kind of vibrancy.
The seccond one lasts a variable amount of time depending on the type of commerces on the street intensity depending on the amount of people living at walkable or short transit ride distance from the street. In my impresion Calgary has the equivalen of a 50000 Euro-city vibrancy of this kind.
The seccond kind of vibrancy, is obiously much nicer than the first one, if you want to increase it you'll have to increase the the population of the outer downtown and inner-city. When you have people living on the downtown the vibrancy of the streets would only depend on the commerces.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by 93JC

There are plenty of buildings not connected to the +15 network that have "cold, uninviting" street faces.

I see where you're coming from but I don't believe they're as intertwined as you would lead others to believe. I work in a building on the fringes of the West End with no +15 connection and in my experience the street life here is far less 'vibrant' than a few blocks to the east, despite the fact those buildings are connected to the +15 system.


How do you even define "street life"? What makes one street's 'life' more 'vibrant' than another?

I'm not saying that the +15 is 100% responsible for the poor pedestrian realm in downtown Calgary, but it is a significant factor. Another factor is the fact that hardly anyone lives downtown so there isn't the critical mass of pedestrians outside of business hours to support lots of business. As a result of these factors (and the fact that everyone wants to drive here), many buildings have a very cold and uninviting street presence.
The reason the street life is so bad in the West end is they didn't put very much retail in the base of all those new Condo towers, and the retail that is there doesn't attract people to that area, as such it's about as exciting as a typical suburb.

As Mr. Cosmopolitan stated, there are basically 2 kinds of street vibrancy, business and recreation are my categories. Business vibrancy is a lot of office workers and suits out on the streets during the day, going into stores and restaurants. The problem with this type of street life is that the office workers all get in their SUVs and drive back to their suburb at days end, so a lot of the businesses they frequent during the day, close at 6 and on weekends leaving downtown a ghost town. The second type of street life is recreational, streets like 17th, 4th, Kensington, 10th etc. all have people out during the day, in the evening and on weekends. This is the preferred type of vibrancy as it creates destination streets that people will travel to just to visit.
How it relates to the +15 system is that if it is in enclosed skywalks above the street, then people can't see it and don't know it's there. As such retail in the +15 system will never be more than something that services the office workers during the day, while it may be convenient on cold or rainy days, it will keep the streets below from ever becoming more than they currently are.

That's my take on it anyway.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

How it relates to the +15 system is that if it is in enclosed skywalks above the street, then people can't see it and don't know it's there. As such retail in the +15 system will never be more than something that services the office workers during the day, while it may be convenient on cold or rainy days, it will keep the streets below from ever becoming more than they currently are.

That's my take on it anyway.

No question that there's too much retail jammed into the +15 system. Sure it's handy to not need a coat to grab lunch, but I have to believe there's a better way. Like possibly having stuff accessible from both the +15 AND the street (I've seen examples, but it's certainly not the norm).

[Ferreth]

Originally Posted by freeweed

No question that there's too much retail jammed into the +15 system. Sure it's handy to not need a coat to grab lunch, but I have to believe there's a better way. Like possibly having stuff accessible from both the +15 AND the street (I've seen examples, but it's certainly not the norm).

Stephen Avenue is probably the best example. I'll walk the street on a nice day, and just stick with the +15 during crappy days.

Yesterday I walked back to The Core from my Dentist at 8th & 8th SW. Compared to my previous walk using the +15 two days ago, I can't say it felt any better - it was quicker, although I seemed to get hung up on every light, and a stupid flexi-bus blocked the intersection at 6th, making it very dangerous to cross. I noted in shopping at HMV that about 2/3ds of the people were coming in the store from the mall at 6pm; 1/3rd from the street. Not too bad for an average winter day after dark.

However, I stuck to the +15 once inside. Even with it being not particularly cold, the inside environment appeals more to me after dark. Shopping The Core is certainly less hectic than trying to hit any mall in the evenings right now.

[freeweed]

Yeah, Stephen Ave has a few examples of what I was thinking about. And I agree with the after-dark comments; it's not something I've consciously noticed before but with our very short days this time of year, it's certainly something that needs to be considered. Maybe we need some more powerful than usual streetlights in our pedestrian/retail realm.

As a pedestrian I find the street lights in downtown Calgary to be very hit or miss. I have some routes that I walk where I can basically time it so that I keep hitting a walk signal with every intersection, and it's very fast. Other routes... I get stuck at every damn corner. And generally arrive just as the previous walk is ending, too, so the wait time is maximized. That's when I start eyeballing the +15. I really have no idea what the city could do to improve the light timings for pedestrians without turning downtown into a parking lot.

[93JC]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

I'm not saying that the +15 is 100% responsible for the poor pedestrian realm in downtown Calgary, but it is a significant factor. Another factor is the fact that hardly anyone lives downtown so there isn't the critical mass of pedestrians outside of business hours to support lots of business. As a result of these factors (and the fact that everyone wants to drive here), many buildings have a very cold and uninviting street presence.

It's a "chicken and egg" scenario: if there aren't enough pedestrians to support businesses then businesses won't open, but pedestrians won't walk the streets if there are no businesses open.

I think this all goes back to what I said in my first post: there are few compelling reasons for people to come downtown as far as businesses go. Downtown has a few boutiques and specialty shops you can't find elsewhere but by definition a boutique appeals to a limited clientele. Everything else is the same as any other retail area in the city. E.g. if you lived in Glenbrook and wanted to buy a CD would you go downtown to shop at the HMV in TD Square, or would you go to the one at Signal Hill Shopping Centre? If you lived in Brentwood and needed to do some grocery shopping would you take the C-train downtown and go to the Safeway on 8th Street, or would you go to the Safeway in Brentwood Mall?

Downtown needs more residents, not less +15s.

[reflexzero]

+15 is nice, but there aren't nearly enough connections, especially around Suncor. It's classic Calgary, you can't get there from here.

But it sure beats ankle-breaking slippery sidewalks.