Calgary Area Regional Transit

[Pegasus]

Originally Posted by milomilo

The word "expropriate" is mentioned three times in that act and I'd hazard a guess it has never been put into practise in a meaningful capacity.

It happens all the time . . . "Eminent domain, land acquisition, compulsory purchase, resumption, resumption/compulsory acquisition, or expropriation is the power of a state, provincial, or national government to take private property for public use". Wikipedia. Examples include land acquisition for utility lines, pipelines, transit, roads, reservoirs . . . and yes, railways!

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Pegasus

It happens all the time . . . "Eminent domain, land acquisition, compulsory purchase, resumption, resumption/compulsory acquisition, or expropriation is the power of a state, provincial, or national government to take private property for public use". Wikipedia. Examples include land acquisition for utility lines, pipelines, transit, roads, reservoirs . . . and yes, railways!

OK tell me the last time a privately built railway utilised that power in Alberta. Call me a cynic, but I have a suspicion that if Virgin Alberta HSR draws a line on the map it won't be a trivial process to obtain that land.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Well, that's something. Someone is going to be out of pocket funding this though as hyperloop is clearly bullshit and will never turn a profit. It's either a scam, or the investors are total morons.

I thought people had moved on to the next sucker story years ago, but I guess our government is desperate.

Investors chase returns. The risk is technical. Profit is dependent on the initial capital cost. Address the technical risk, and you’re on your way. Plus proving out the system creates future value.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by milomilo

OK tell me the last time a privately built railway utilised that power in Alberta. Call me a cynic, but I have a suspicion that if Virgin Alberta HSR draws a line on the map it won't be a trivial process to obtain that land.

Trivial, no. But a process exists.

[Pegasus]

Originally Posted by milomilo

OK tell me the last time a privately built railway utilised that power in Alberta. Call me a cynic, but I have a suspicion that if Virgin Alberta HSR draws a line on the map it won't be a trivial process to obtain that land.

Sounds like the provincial government are behind this project so if it continues to have their support land acquisition shouldn't be a problem (unless the environmentalists have objections - but this isn't an oil pipeline and should be perceived as having environmental benefits).

The proponents are Transpod, a Toronto based startup, not Virgin.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Pegasus

Sounds like the provincial government are behind this project so if it continues to have their support land acquisition shouldn't be a problem (unless the environmentalists have objections - but this isn't an oil pipeline and should be perceived as having environmental benefits).

The issue will never come to pass with Hyperloop, because a full line will never be built - it's a massive scam. I'm surprised it's still got legs after 8 years, it was obviously BS back when it was announced, and now we have years of little progress as further proof.

There's a good discussion on this in the main Canada forum, if you don't believe me that it's vapourware, there are others who can see it too.

Originally Posted by Pegasus

The proponents are Transpod, a Toronto based startup, not Virgin.

That was a made up company by me as an example for a certain argument.

[Pegasus]

Originally Posted by milomilo

That was a made up company by me as an example for a certain argument.

Good choice as a made up example. Virgin were a minor investor in Brightline, a privately run higher-speed rail route between Miami, Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach (not a hyperloop). Virgin pulled out earlier this month.

[suburb]

Originally Posted by milomilo

The issue will never come to pass with Hyperloop, because a full line will never be built - it's a massive scam. I'm surprised it's still got legs after 8 years, it was obviously BS back when it was announced, and now we have years of little progress as further proof.

There's a good discussion on this in the main Canada forum, if you don't believe me that it's vapourware, there are others who can see it too.

This might be a first, but I agree with milomilo.

[Jaspertf]

In layman's terms what is Hyperloop/Transpod? It is an object travelling at high speed in a vacuum. Why a vacuum? A vacuum has little to no air, air creates resistance (aerodynamic drag), if there is no air there is no drag and objects can travel at much higher speeds. Think of space travel.
However when it comes to passengers, we need air to breathe, so for passengers Hyperloop/Transpod becomes a pressurized vehicle travelling in a vacuum tube.
What is an object that operates with an interior pressure greater than the exterior? An aeroplane.
What is an object that operates with an interior pressure less than the exterior? A submarine.
What is the fastest form of propulsion? Electro-magnetic.
So an aeroplane propelled by mag-lev, inside a submarine.
As temperatures get colder, all metals and materials become more brittle and susceptible to fracturing. Over the past winter both CP and CN have been operating their trains at slow speeds to prevent breaking rails, causing the grain backlog. Ski hills will shutdown chair lifts below -20degC, to prevent cables snapping.
Also the temperature expansion coefficient of steel pipes per degree change of temperature is a constant 14x10-6 m/mdegC. The distance between Calgary and Edmonton is approx. 300km, the temperature variation over 1 year can go from +35 in summer to -40 in winter, a 75 degC temperature change. Over the course of a year in Alberta, an exposed carbon steel pipe from Calgary to Edmonton will expand/contract 135 meters.
All materials expand and contract with temperature changes:
Fiberglass would expand/contract 230m over 300km.
PVC would expand/contract 675m over 300km.
CPVC would expand/contract 855m over 300km.
The temperature in the Prairies gets below -40degC in the winter. The frost level in Alberta is considered to be 3.0m, all water utilities are buried below 3m in the ground to prevent freezing.
To work effectively in Alberta, Hyperloop/Transpod would have to be underground. Also with a speed of 1000kph it would have to be dead straight, which can easily be achieved with tunnelling.
So will Transpod cost CAD6billion between Calgary and Edmonton?
A simple train tunnel costs CAD20million per km, Crossrail is costing more. A Transpod tunnel would also need to be sealed in order to maintain a vacuum, and this does not include the mag-lev propulsion technology or the construction of the terminals and pods.
For a quick relevant example, Tokyo to Nagoya mag-lev. The direct route is 286km with the majority in a tunnel, it is currently estimated at JPY5.1Trillion or CAD 60 Billion.

Travelling in Hyperloop/Transpod
A typical person can handle 5g vertical and 20g horizontal for less than 10 seconds, in these situations the typical person is heavily restrained in the seat. Comfortable acceleration, where the unrestrained typical person does not fall over, is less than 1m/s/s or 0.1g.
• Passenger aircraft acceleration is 1.5m/s/s
• Supercar acceleration is approx. 40m/s/s
Hyperloop/Transpod is being sold as a cross between a passenger aircraft and a passenger train, the typical person is able to wander the cabin unrestrained, which means vertical and horizontal acceleration must be 1m/s/s or less. With a top speed of 1000km/h, acceleration/decceleration of the capsule will take approx. 4.5 mins and cover a distance of approx. 36km, the remaining 223km between Calgary and Edmonton will take approx. 14 mins. Additional stops would add 15 mins depending on re-pressurizing and de-pressurizing rates. In order to be able to wander the cabin any gradient change would need to be less than 0.1%, and the curve radius greater than 50km.

Result
Hyperloop/Transpod is a fantastic idea and a great use of technology, but it will be a massive white elephant for Alberta. The combined population of Tokyo and Nagoya is 47 million, the best place for this technology in North America is in the North East Corridor between Washington DC and New York.

[speedog]

So if simple intra-city/town passenger rail can't be put into place in Alberta then why are people still beating the bandwagon on this hyper loop proposal or any other high speed alternatives? I've lived in Calgary for 40 years and it's become quite apparent to me that passenger rail will not be a thing here without generous government subsidies which I happen to believe are monies that can be better spent elsewhere to improve the lives of Albertans. Hell, we don't even have consistent and/or reliable passenger bus service to many centers in Alberta - if one needs to get to somewhere like Vulcan or Taber from Calgary then you're pretty much stuck renting a vehicle or bumming a ride.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by speedog

So if simple intra-city/town passenger rail can't be put into place in Alberta then why are people still beating the bandwagon on this hyper loop proposal or any other high speed alternatives? I've lived in Calgary for 40 years and it's become quite apparent to me that passenger rail will not be a thing here without generous government subsidies which I happen to believe are monies that can be better spent elsewhere to improve the lives of Albertans. Hell, we don't even have consistent and/or reliable passenger bus service to many centers in Alberta - if one needs to get to somewhere like Vulcan or Taber from Calgary then you're pretty much stuck renting a vehicle or bumming a ride.

It is a matter of cost versus benefits. Due to how busy the rail lines currently are for freight there isn't capacity to run reliable and reasonably fast conventional passenger rail. The government looked into how expensive it would be to upgrade the conventional rail to provide reliable and reasonable fast conventional rail, and it was quite expensive compared to what the result would be for service. So expensive that it makes sense to go faster as the extra speed induces or shifts enough extra users, so that for higher speed the net cost is lower to the government.

The goal for any major upgrade is to minimize that net cost. And cost doesn't increase linearly with speed. Hyperloop the entire value proposition is it is much faster than high speed rail, with lower cost.

[Pegasus]

Much as I love the concept of a hyperloop, I wonder if high speed rail might still be the more practical option.

There are three travel time benefits to rail travel:

1. Travel time/to from the terminal (from/to city centre) at each end
2. Check in and security clearance
3. Travel time (in air or on train)

On the first benefit travelling from city centre to city centre avoids trips to/from airport - say 20 minutes in Calgary and 40 (?) minutes in Edmonton. Also there are risks associated with traffic jams (especially in the rush hour) and weather delays.

Hard to judge the second benefit but airports require arriving and checking in at least 30 mins prior to departure, potentially long check in lines (though not during COVID and can be alleviated with on-line check in) and the risk of security hold-ups.

Travel time is about 20 mins by plane, 30 to 40 mins by hyperloop, and 50 - 60 mins by high speed rail. Add to plane time de-icing, taxiing, and awaiting take-off or landing clearance (and weather delays). The plus or minus 20 minute difference between Hyperloop and high speed train is pretty insignificant when compared to all the other time benefits of either form of transport over air travel. (High speed rail would perhaps be more susceptible to sever weather delays than the Hyperloop)

So total travel time (city centre to city centre):
Flying -

• 2 hours plus (no wonder many choose to drive)
• High speed rail - 1 hour or so
• Hyperloop - 45 minutes or so

You can question my numbers (just guesstimates) but you get the picture. Are all the technical risks associated with an unproven Hyperloop (and the risk of it not happening at all) worth 15 minutes? High speed rail is proven and operating in many parts of the world in all sorts of climatic conditions.

[MalcolmTucker]

Oh. High speed rail isn't that fast And at least right now, the risk is all in someone else's hands.



I don't think the risk of it not happening at all is a new risk!

[Pegasus]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Oh. High speed rail isn't that fast And at least right now, the risk is all in someone else's hands.

High speed rail is up to 250 - 350 km/hr. Calgary to Edmonton ~ 300 km

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

I don't think the risk of it not happening at all is a new risk!

I meant from a technology viewpoint. Not political/financial.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Pegasus

High speed rail is up to 250 - 350 km/hr. Calgary to Edmonton ~ 300 km



I meant from a technology viewpoint. Not political/financial.

For speed, there is significant lower speed sections that would be required for Calgary-Edmonton high speed, plus depending on system complexity, multiple stops. 90 minutes is the reference case for a greenfield electrified route.

[Jaspertf]

With the ever expanding population in Alberta, something will need to be done to address the transportation issues in the Calgary – Edmonton corridor. With Edmonton being the seat of government and Calgary a financial and business centre, the transportation requirement between the 2 cities is far greater than their respective size, the Van Horne Institute puts it at 8x.
 Transpod/Hyperloop will cost more than $196 million/km, so over $60 billion.
 High Speed Rail costs approximately $40 million/km, so approx. $12.2 billion.
 Conventional Rail would cost less than $7 million/km, so less than $2 billion.

There isn’t an option to do nothing, therefore the alternative is to add lanes to the QE2. Highway construction rates are as follows:
• Rural, $2.5 m - $7.4 m per lane-km, average $4.95 million per lane-km.
• Urban, $3.9 m - $15.8 m per lane-km, average $9.85 million per lane-km.
• Restrictions, $13.6 m - $60.7 m per lane-km, average $37.15 million per lane-km.
• Interchange, $75 million to rebuild a simple cloverleaf.
Restrictions include night-time working, noise abatement and alterations to traffic flows/lane reversals.

To construct an additional northbound and southbound lane on the QE2 would be at least $4 billion!

[speedog]

Originally Posted by Jaspertf

With the ever expanding population in Alberta, something will need to be done to address the transportation issues in the Calgary – Edmonton corridor. With Edmonton being the seat of government and Calgary a financial and business centre, the transportation requirement between the 2 cities is far greater than their respective size, the Van Horne Institute puts it at 8x.
 Transpod/Hyperloop will cost more than $196 million/km, so over $60 billion.
 High Speed Rail costs approximately $40 million/km, so approx. $12.2 billion.
 Conventional Rail would cost less than $7 million/km, so less than $2 billion.

There isn’t an option to do nothing, therefore the alternative is to add lanes to the QE2. Highway construction rates are as follows:
• Rural, $2.5 m - $7.4 m per lane-km, average $4.95 million per lane-km.
• Urban, $3.9 m - $15.8 m per lane-km, average $9.85 million per lane-km.
• Restrictions, $13.6 m - $60.7 m per lane-km, average $37.15 million per lane-km.
• Interchange, $75 million to rebuild a simple cloverleaf.
Restrictions include night-time working, noise abatement and alterations to traffic flows/lane reversals.

To construct an additional northbound and southbound lane on the QE2 would be at least $4 billion!

It is quite apparent what camp you're sitting in but do you realistically think that there will be any sort of non-highway land based transportation connection between Calgary and Edmonton within your lifetime? I don't see it within my lifetime but then I've probably got a couple of decades on you.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by speedog

It is quite apparent what camp you're sitting in but do you realistically think that there will be any sort of non-highway land based transportation connection between Calgary and Edmonton within your lifetime? I don't see it within my lifetime but then I've probably got a couple of decades on you.

What was the QEII like 30 years ago? If Alberta doesn't fail on purpose, like its population appears to want, then in another 30 years that highway will be rather busy. Adding more lanes has diminishing returns.

[Rollerstud98]

Originally Posted by milomilo

What was the QEII like 30 years ago? If Alberta doesn't fail on purpose, like its population appears to want, then in another 30 years that highway will be rather busy. Adding more lanes has diminishing returns.

Almost safe to cross it midday in Airdrie. Not the case at all anymore at any time really. 20 years ago if you left Airdrie at 6:50 smooth sailing to 16th. Pre COVID it was still pretty backed up at that time to 64th and beyond.

[Jaspertf]

Originally Posted by speedog

It is quite apparent what camp you're sitting in but do you realistically think that there will be any sort of non-highway land based transportation connection between Calgary and Edmonton within your lifetime? I don't see it within my lifetime but then I've probably got a couple of decades on you.

Yes, because I am actively trying to make it happen.