NC LRT Advocacy Group

[outoftheice]

Hey Gang!!

The recent discussion about the Skytrain expansion in Vancouver got me thinking... why not start a similar advocacy group here? When plans for the West LRT were announced, a group of citizens got together to form the Best-West-LRT group (http://www.bestwestlrt.com/). Regardless of what people here think of their policies, they were able to influence the city enough to get some design changes made to the WestLRT plan. So a precedent for this kind of advocacy group already exists in Calgary. The timing seems to be right as well since the introduction of Plan It finally has the general public interested in long-term development and transit issues in Calgary.

Everybody on here seems to agree that the current plan to run the NC LRT up the Nose Creek Valley offers no real benefit other than to allow the LRT to reach northern suburbia at a low(er) cost. Multiple people have mentioned that a better option would be to extend the underground portion of the SE LRT up along Centre Street and promote increased density along the new transit corridor. This plan would nicely compliment the current vision of the Plan It Calgary document. Although I'm nothing more than an interested observer (my background is in aviation), I have seen some very intelligent posts by people on this forum who are obviously very knowledgeable in the field of mass transit and urban design. I'm sure that with a combined effort, the people from this forum could come up with an indepth proposal that could then be pushed publically for the city to accept. I think that this form of public advocacy is the only way that we'll see these plans change and unless a group steps forward soon with an alternative, I think we're doomed to see the status quo continue.

So what does everybody think? Is it realistic for us to work together to hammer together a proposal and then find a way to promote it in the public realm? Even if things don't come together in a formal way, it's my hope that this thread will be used to generate discussion and ideas about running the NC LRT underground up Centre Street.

Cheers,
outoftheice

[Beltliner]

Summat like this



and like this?

[frinkprof]

I of course would like to see a more central alignment for this line, and I also think that the posters here could form a strong group to get a voice out about such issues. However, I think timing should be considered.

The NC LRT is at least the better part of a decade from being prioritized and approved. I'm not saying we should wait until the last minute to get organized, but the favoured alignment for the NCLRT, as I understand it, is still a fluid thing south of Beddington Trail. I believe it was mersar who attended an open house and mentioned that a map of future LRT routes was shown with just the portion following Beddington Trail was shown and thus the Nose Creek alignment may in fact be falling out of favour.

I do think it would be advantageous to start to communicating a little more formally with the City on this issue though. This may be the direction such a group would take at the present time, since the Nose Creek alignment isn't exactly set in stone. It has shown up in a few too many planning documents for comfort though.

[Wooster]

I think building an undeniable rationale is the best tactic and then releasing a small, clear document stating the case. I'd be all for getting the ball rolling for a review of the alignment. I also hear rumours that a there may be a centre street corridor study (like the International ave one) coming up.

[AirGuitarChampion]

What happens if it went up edmonton trail for a little bit?

See pic below:

-Left is a possible Centre Street alignment
-Right is a possible Edmonton Trail alignment

Both end up underneath Centre and continue north
Both would end up somehow connecting to SELRT off screen



Blue - underground 8th ave subway
White - NE line (not sure how it connects to subway, I just left it on 7th)

Light Blue - Bridge
Green - At grade
Red - Cut and cover
Magenta - Bore

Black bordered white circles - stations?

[Beltliner]

Grab your gear, boyos.

[twsnagel]

That plan is missing a lot of things besides a Centre street LRT... for example - on the last page, check out that random section of McKnight between 4 St. W and Deerfoot that downgrades from Skeletal to Arterial.

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by twsnagel

That plan is missing a lot of things besides a Centre street LRT... for example - on the last page, check out that random section of McKnight between 4 St. W and Deerfoot that downgrades from Skeletal to Arterial.

Widening McKnight would also give some oppurtunity to have a few TOD type sites at the corner of McKnight/Centre if they route the LRT up that direction.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

Widening McKnight would also give some oppurtunity to have a few TOD type sites at the corner of McKnight/Centre if they route the LRT up that direction.

What would stop the area from becoming a major TOD centre without widening McKnight? With a Centre Street Subway I imagine the goal would be to naturally increase the density of the entire corridor. Something like a six story street wall, with retail, lining Centre all the way up to Beddington Boulevard. Then higher densities, point towers on those six story podiums, at the locations of stations. The area between (at a minimum) 4th Street NW and Edmonton Trail could then be upzoned to allow for a variety of infill, from townhouses (six to an existing lock, three facing the street and three the alley) to four story walk ups. While we're at it it might make sense to designate 4th Street NW and Edmonton Trail as retail streets along with a few East-West corridors, definitely 16th and McKnight, maybe a couple in between.

Widening McKnight might be counter productive to that effort.

[ksnaden]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

Widening McKnight might be counter productive to that effort.

Mcknight seems to be bumper to bumper all the way during rush hour.

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

What would stop the area from becoming a major TOD centre without widening McKnight? With a Centre Street Subway I imagine the goal would be to naturally increase the density of the entire corridor. Something like a six story street wall, with retail, lining Centre all the way up to Beddington Boulevard. Then higher densities, point towers on those six story podiums, at the locations of stations. The area between (at a minimum) 4th Street NW and Edmonton Trail could then be upzoned to allow for a variety of infill, from townhouses (six to an existing lock, three facing the street and three the alley) to four story walk ups. While we're at it it might make sense to designate 4th Street NW and Edmonton Trail as retail streets along with a few East-West corridors, definitely 16th and McKnight, maybe a couple in between.

Widening McKnight might be counter productive to that effort.

What I was getting at is that widening McKnight would force the removal of some of the structures along it, opening the door for quicker redevelopment.

And it's absolutely neccessary, there's no proper east west corridors in the north. Mcknight doesn't have to be an expressway through that section, it just needs to be six lanes with a median.

[mr.x]

I couldn't help but laugh at how they chose the worse examples for elevated guideways, and including grafitti artists on them....like, wow. Who in the right mind would also use the Chicago El-Train as an example? Aren't their steel guideways like 100 years old and outdated (nobody builds them like that anymore!)?


If you guys are serious about creating a group, here's some ammo for how Vancouver is building elevated guideways correctly:

[frinkprof]

^Mr.X, this is a different project than the West LRT, which is approved and close to starting construction. This is for a future line in the north central corridor. What this group would advocate is to go underground for a portion of this line as opposed to above ground in a location that is undesirable (to us) to have a line. Thanks for all the information. Not sure how useful the elevated line info will be, but that streetscape stuff could come in handy.

[mr.x]

^ ohhhh....that situation sounds identical to the RAV (now Canada Line) debate in Vancouver five years ago, whether it should be elevated/at-grade down Arbutus (which is a longer and much less dense and much less centralized corridor) or tunneled down Cambie (centre of the city, employment and population density centres along the route, and the route is shorter).

Of course, the right route - Cambie - was chosen.

[frinkprof]

^Yup. Without looking at maps and such (I know some of Vancouver, but not entirely familiar with some streets), that does sound exactly like what is happening here. This line is probably at least the better part of a decade from starting construction though, as the SE line and the downtown subway are both higher priority.

[DizzyEdge]

I wonder what the cost difference would be. I checked out the assessment values in a 1/2 km side of centre about half way between the river and beddington, and it came out to about 9 million dollars worth of housing, so the full length could be 160+ million in housing buyouts. equiv of 450 houses, plus business costs in addition to the land and buildings said businesses are in.

[YYCguys]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

I wonder what the cost difference would be. I checked out the assessment values in a 1/2 km side of centre about half way between the river and beddington, and it came out to about 9 million dollars worth of housing, so the full length could be 160+ million in housing buyouts. equiv of 450 houses, plus business costs in addition to the land and buildings said businesses are in.

Yee-owza! Is this in line with say the West LRT buyouts or any of the other completed lines?

[MonctonGoldenFlames]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

I wonder what the cost difference would be. I checked out the assessment values in a 1/2 km side of centre about half way between the river and beddington, and it came out to about 9 million dollars worth of housing, so the full length could be 160+ million in housing buyouts. equiv of 450 houses, plus business costs in addition to the land and buildings said businesses are in.

not to mention the 9 kms underground to beddington that cost approximately 3x as much as grade level track.

[Beltliner]

^^^ Once you do the math and see for yourself the value you're capturing in the lands adjacent to Centre Street Metro stations, though, the project is easy to justify and easy to sell.

[mersar]

Originally Posted by YYCguys

Yee-owza! Is this in line with say the West LRT buyouts or any of the other completed lines?

None of the other lines had much if any buyouts aside from small areas around stations for the most part. The West LRT had $50M allocated for design and land purchases in councils 2007 decision, the 2006 version of the West LRT report pegged land acquisitions at $45M so most of the $50M would be that. This would have been much higher if it wasn't for the fact the line had a relatively small number of properties that were needed, considering well over half the line runs either along the CPR or through existing reserved right of way or city owned property.