SAN ANTONIO | City and Metro Transportation Thread

[Rynetwo]

281 is open through Stone Oak.

I-10 opens tomorrow.

[LSPaul]

Originally Posted by Rynetwo

281 is open through Stone Oak.

I-10 opens tomorrow.

Actually, I-10, Eastbound only, including the HOV lane, opened during the weekend.

[ILUVSAT]

Originally Posted by Paul in S.A TX

San Antonio is the most visited city in Texas attracting 38 million annual visitors versus 22 million for Houston. Being a HUB raises a cities profile and definitely brings the best air service and higher passenger activity. Something SAT probably will never achieve if it doesn't think big.

First, DFW had almost 50 million visitors in 2019 (25+ million of which visited the City of Dallas). And, I believe he 22 million for Houston was only visitors to the City of Houston.

I take those numbers with a huge grain of salt. And, the way they are compiled is different in every metro. The vast majority of San Antonio's visitors are day trippers.

Second, SAT will never be a true/large HUB for a legacy airline (a ULCC - maybe). And, it is up to a specific airline on whether or not to HUB an airport. SAT cannot build its way into a HUB. Even if they tried, how would they pay for it without the commitment of an airline?

Additionally, in the post-COVID environment, airlines are not going to create new HUBs - rather, they are going to strengthen the ones they have (and/or eliminate smaller ones).

Originally Posted by Paul in S.A TX

Going on that notion of thinking big, should SAT try to build another airport? I wonder if a San Antonio/Austin airport would ever be a possibility? If that were to ever happen in the future I can see it becoming a hub for a major airliner.

SAT will always be a midsized airport because of its landlocked location and competition with ABIA that draws people from San Antonio. I know this for a fact because I saw an ABIA shuttle bus on I-35 between Shertz and New Braunfels. I've even flown out of ABIA once.

There will be a time when there is 8 million people living along the S.A./Austin corridor and served only by two mid sized airports.

An S.A./Austin airport joint venture would be the epitome of thinking big?

I would agree with the notion of thinking "big." Heck, shoot for the moon and be happy with just getting into orbit.

A new airport in SA is definitely a possibility. But, again, how would you pay for it? A PPP with one of the bases in town could be beneficial.

Nonetheless, a true/large HUB is not in the cards for San Antonio. As far as the legacies go, American is not going to create a HUB ~250 miles south of its main HUB; United is not going to develop one ~195 west of theirs at IAH. Southwest already has two HUBs in Texas and Delta has already indicated the possibility of ramping up operations out of AUS. However, in the post-COVID environment - we'll see what becomes of those plans.

With regard to a Austin/San Antonio airport...please give up. It's never going to happen. Austin pushed the idea with leaders of San Antonio back in the 1980's and again in the mid-1990's - in both instances, SA shot them down.

Additionally, airport leaders in Austin have already publicly said they don't need a new airport between the two cities. AUS's growth has been phenomenal and they have plenty of land to expand (it's not a mid-tier airport anymore). Heck, pre-COVID, they were working toward beginning a $4 billion expansion to the airport - set to have begun in 2021 with a completion in 2025 (phase 1) and 2027 (phase 2). That plan has been pushed back by 2-3 years.


***Bottom line, I like the direction the mayor and the aviation department are heading. A new terminal is needed and I hope they can achieve it. I too, agree that a look at NOLA's new terminal is warranted. However, don't copy their process - it was riddled with delays and cost overruns.

[Spoiler]

Originally Posted by ILUVSAT

Second, SAT will never be a true/large HUB for a legacy airline (a ULCC - maybe). And, it is up to a specific airline on whether or not to HUB an airport. SAT cannot build its way into a HUB. Even if they tried, how would they pay for it without the commitment of an airline?

Additionally, in the post-COVID environment, airlines are not going to create new HUBs - rather, they are going to strengthen the ones they have (and/or eliminate smaller ones).

I would agree with the notion of thinking "big." Heck, shoot for the moon and be happy with just getting into orbit.

A new airport in SA is definitely a possibility. But, again, how would you pay for it? A PPP with one of the bases in town could be beneficial.

Nonetheless, a true/large HUB is not in the cards for San Antonio. As far as the legacies go, American is not going to create a HUB ~250 miles south of its main HUB; United is not going to develop one ~195 west of theirs at IAH. Southwest already has two HUBs in Texas and Delta has already indicated the possibility of ramping up operations out of AUS. However, in the post-COVID environment - we'll see what becomes of those plans.

You've convinced me that San Antonio has only one option. The city must create its own airline.

[texastarkus]

Originally Posted by Spoiler

You've convinced me that San Antonio has only one option. The city must create its own airline.

I've said this a couple of times and got ignored or shot down but since the topic of the airport is back...I feel it would be a good idea to put a terminal at Kelly Field. The big problem with SAT is the lack of a long runway. Out longest runway is shorter than the shortest runway at AUS. Kelly Field has a nice long runway long enough for non-stop flights to London, Paris, Frankfort or Asia.

[Paul in S.A TX]

Originally Posted by ILUVSAT

First, DFW had almost 50 million visitors in 2019 (25+ million of which visited the City of Dallas). And, I believe he 22 million for Houston was only visitors to the City of Houston.

I take those numbers with a huge grain of salt. And, the way they are compiled is different in every metro. The vast majority of San Antonio's visitors are day trippers.

Second, SAT will never be a true/large HUB for a legacy airline (a ULCC - maybe). And, it is up to a specific airline on whether or not to HUB an airport. SAT cannot build its way into a HUB. Even if they tried, how would they pay for it without the commitment of an airline?

Additionally, in the post-COVID environment, airlines are not going to create new HUBs - rather, they are going to strengthen the ones they have (and/or eliminate smaller ones).





I would agree with the notion of thinking "big." Heck, shoot for the moon and be happy with just getting into orbit.

A new airport in SA is definitely a possibility. But, again, how would you pay for it? A PPP with one of the bases in town could be beneficial.

Nonetheless, a true/large HUB is not in the cards for San Antonio. As far as the legacies go, American is not going to create a HUB ~250 miles south of its main HUB; United is not going to develop one ~195 west of theirs at IAH. Southwest already has two HUBs in Texas and Delta has already indicated the possibility of ramping up operations out of AUS. However, in the post-COVID environment - we'll see what becomes of those plans.

With regard to a Austin/San Antonio airport...please give up. It's never going to happen. Austin pushed the idea with leaders of San Antonio back in the 1980's and again in the mid-1990's - in both instances, SA shot them down.

Additionally, airport leaders in Austin have already publicly said they don't need a new airport between the two cities. AUS's growth has been phenomenal and they have plenty of land to expand (it's not a mid-tier airport anymore). Heck, pre-COVID, they were working toward beginning a $4 billion expansion to the airport - set to have begun in 2021 with a completion in 2025 (phase 1) and 2027 (phase 2). That plan has been pushed back by 2-3 years.


***Bottom line, I like the direction the mayor and the aviation department are heading. A new terminal is needed and I hope they can achieve it. I too, agree that a look at NOLA's new terminal is warranted. However, don't copy their process - it was riddled with delays and cost overruns.

Those 50 million visitors to DFW could have visited various cities within the metro and be a statistic to each an every city.

The same can be said for San Antonio's city versus metro annual visitor counts. It would be a difficult task to try to extropolate statistical information of the activity of a tourist/visitor within a metro.

San Antonio's largest suburb historic New Braunfels/Gruene attract 3 million people annually. Adjacent to New Braunfels, San Marcos(Metro Austin) sees 7 million annual visitors. The San Antonio/Austin region draw more than 70 million total annual visitors pre-covid era.

The only reason why I mentioned visitor stats in the first place is to show that airports with high passenger activity(e.g. HUB Airports) doesn't necessarily mean that said city generates tens of millions more people utilizing the local airport. Being a hub airport does raise passenger counts exponentialy if the base of a major airliner.


I doubt it would happen either with two major hubs within 200-300 miles. Salt Lake, Anchorage, St. Louis although smaller HUB airports don't have a Dallas or Houston nearby.

I was merely stating a wish list of what I would like to see in our regions future. We have the growth, the populace, economics, etc. San Antonio-Austin aren't the same cities that they were in the 80's and 90's and the vision of a joint airport should be revisited. I'd rather see an S.A./Austin airport rather than two big airports even if a HUB isn't possible.

This region is only going to get bigger and to have a tad-bit better than mediocre air service with San Antonio facing the most obstacles to achieve world class air service.

[JACKinBeantown]

Tornado created a dedicated thread for airport discussions. I know it will take some time for everyone to discover it and adjust to holding the airport conversations there, but I think it will be helpful for everyone to keep it all in one place. That way this thread can be used to discuss roads and highways, buses, pie-in-the-sky rail ideas, etc.

Here's the link:
https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=244061

[Tornado]

Originally Posted by JACKinBeantown

Tornado created a dedicated thread for airport discussions. I know it will take some time for everyone to discover it and adjust to holding the airport conversations there, but I think it will be helpful for everyone to keep it all in one place. That way this thread can be used to discuss roads and highways, buses, pie-in-the-sky rail ideas, etc.

Here's the link:
https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=244061

Yes, thank you for linking it. Maybe Kevin or SirKingWilliam can make it a sticky today.

[UltraDanPrime]

Maybe someone can make a Austin one also, so those who always feel like taking about Austin can have their own place to do so.

[JACKinBeantown]

Originally Posted by UltraDanPrime

Maybe someone can make a Austin one also, so those who always feel like taking about Austin can have their own place to do so.

Maybe that was sarcasm, but I don't think so because there was no winky emoji. So...

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=140690

[UltraDanPrime]

Maybe a little in there Jack to be honest. But mainly serious. Seems whenever SA transportation is discussed, some feel the need to bring up Austin is over & over. Be nice to have a place where those individuals can do so & would also keep this thread free of that topic for those of us that want to discuss SA.

[jaga185]

Alamo Heights voters approve bonds to improve Broadway, Austin Highway

Alamo Heights voters approved $13.25 million in bond funding toward improving the city's portion of Broadway Street and Austin Highway, according to unofficial results released Nov. 4.

The project spans just more than 1 mile and includes changes and upgrades to streets, sidewalks, water and sewage lines, and stormwater drainage. The bonds will solely fund the stormwater drainage portion, improvements designed to reduce flooding on Broadway.

The city estimates a total cost of $31.6 million, funded by several entities, including the city of Alamo Heights, the Texas Department of Transportation, the Alamo Area Metropolitan Planning Organization, and the San Antonio River Authority. Overland Architects will design the landscape and streetscape.

Bonds will be issued early next year, with construction to begin in 2022 or 2023 and last about a year and a half.

TxDOT funded $4 million for road work, which will reduce Broadway from six lanes to four lanes, install new traffic and crosswalk signals, and add new center medians with turn lanes. The Alamo Area MPO will pay $10 million to widen the sidewalks and create bicycle lanes.

The River Authority committed $1.3 million for landscaping to capture and slow stormwater and to improve the quality of runoff in the San Antonio River. Utility fund certificates of obligation will contribute $2.1 million from water and sewer rates to the replacement of water and sewer lines and improvements to aging infrastructure.

The redesign is intended to make Broadway as "environmentally efficient as possible, within budget constraints," according to city documents. The city has been working with the Alamo Area MPO, the River Authority, and TxDOT on the project since 2016, with several years of workshops and stakeholder meetings.

The project is an extension of the city of San Antonio's Lower Broadway project. Work on the first phase began this summer.

[ahealy]

Forgive my laziness, but is SA slated to have rail on the ballot anything down the road?

[JACKinBeantown]

Originally Posted by ahealy

Forgive my laziness, but is SA slated to have rail on the ballot anything down the road?

I see what you did there.

[Spoiler]

Originally Posted by ahealy

Forgive my laziness, but is SA slated to have rail on the ballot anything down the road?

Rail is the third rail of politics in SA, no politician is willing to touch it.

Funding for mass transit just won a vote to be increased in SA, that will start to happen in a few years' time. Funding will still be less than in other big Texas cities!

What the transit system is talking about is someday maybe having something they like to call a "trackless train" which is an articulated bus that will have its own road. One reason they're proposing this is because they think it will be cheaper and just as effective. Another reason they're proposing this is because any rail transit system built in SA must go to the people to be voted on, it can't be a decision made by the transit authority.

[Tornado]

The light rail I would love to see would be a four part plan:


Alamo Heights into downtown on Broadway
Houston Street from near St. Phillips into downtown
Commerce from OLLU into downtown
Southtown along Alamo into town

[SproutingTowers]

The first metro line should run between the airport and downtown with stops at the Quarry, SA Zoo/Trinity/Incarnate Word and Pearl Brewery.

[ahealy]

I personally would love to see some form of new mass transit introduced in SA. Maybe a mix of BRT, Electric PRT, one simple rail line to the airport, and a commuter line to Austin. I realize Lone Star Rail is very dead though.

[Tornado]

I bet its another decade before we see any meaningful movement towards a rail line between Austin and SA

[aggie2008]

I would assume that the transit plans for SA generally follow the VIA Vision 2040 plan with a couple of major caveats:
1. Things will be delayed because of COVID and the sales tax that was being suggested to fund a lot of this passed but doesn't go towards transit until 2025. Hopefully seeing these funds coming will play well for federal matching for some of the higher dollar amounts.
2. Replace all mentions of LRT with BRT or "trackless trains". I know a lot of people like the idea of rail but I honestly don't think it's really needed for SA. The biggest thing you get with rail over articulated buses is additional capacity but do we really think we need that? I'd rather have higher frequency, lower capacity vehicles. There are some other benefits but BRT can be a quality substitute (again just my two cents).
3. This obviously isn't going to be funded with an eight of a cent of sales tax, VIA needs to start planning to get a significant amount of the next bond and start really planning for a hopeful federal infrastructure funding program that prioritizes transit. I'm a little afraid Austin will get a vast majority of the Texas allocation because of their ambitious plans and local funding.

https://www.viainfo.net/via-looking-ahead/