[St. John's] Metro West End Development

[mrjanejacobs]

Oceanex parking lottttttttt. That's where we need to head - and perhaps the only place where I would support limitless height-regulations for buildings (I would support modest regulations in the west end of dt).

Development and heritage conservation aren't mutually exclusive, we can have both. It's really not an ultimatum, and it shouldn't be.

However, I have a hard time believe there is no where to erect a building. There is ample real-estate in the west-end of dt and moving further west. It's also where you'll meet the least opposition, fortunately. I can think of several lots. The key is to develop a property WITH council and public engagement. To save money but also to produce something that we're all happy with.

[ed0797]

Originally Posted by urbanlover76

I am NOT referring to the residential areas of the Heritage District. I am referring to Water Street and Duckworth Street. As those would be the streets we would be looking at.

I would never entertain the idea of a company bulldozing down someone's home. I may be a true blooded Trontoian but I am not stupid or heartless.

But then you hit the problem that those streets are the trademarks of our provinces modern heritage. Not the amazing scenery, but the longest and strongest remaining core of our city. If we were to destroy or substantially modernize what stands on those streets. St.John's would be St.John's no longer.

I can show you (in case you haven't looked) the best area for development in the city. Theres a few projects in the works now, but the space still has plenty more capacity. It's even close to our highway and the downtown core.

[img=http://s14.postimg.org/oicsdxgv1/West_end_downtown.jpg]

[Townie709]

For companies wishing to set up office space in our great city, the west end is most certainly the way to go. It is a run down, neglected portion of our downtown in the area of the delta hotel, the cabot complex, city hall, ect. It holds minimal heritage value when compared to the beloved east end (including the heritage shopping districts of water and duckworth street)

Most of this land suitable for tall development. As there are few residents who's "views" of the harbour are not already blocked by taller structures, the west end is the perfect place to develop 16+ story buildings with little opposition. We've actually been pushing for the height restrictions in this area to be lifted, or rather a height minimum to be put in place.

It is very important to think to the future and ride the wave of the economic boom we're experiencing to the best of our ability. We all know that. But the fact is, we've got something unique here whether you can appreciate it or not. Residents are passionate about their city and will do all they can to protect what makes it unique. But, that doesn't mean we cannot build high-density tall office/residential buildings. Right now in St. John's, we have oodles of pieces of land in the west end suitable for large highrise developments that can be built without destroying any of what makes us the city that we are.

If your company wants to build office space, than they had better go to the west end where they will see little legitimate opposition. Proposing something above 15-16 stories in the east end pointless as it will get shot down faster than... something that's really fast! and rightfully so.

[urbanlover76]

Originally Posted by ed0797

But then you hit the problem that those streets are the trademarks of our provinces modern heritage. Not the amazing scenery, but the longest and strongest remaining core of our city. If we were to destroy or substantially modernize what stands on those streets. St.John's would be St.John's no longer.

I can show you (in case you haven't looked) the best area for development in the city. Theres a few projects in the works now, but the space still has plenty more capacity. It's even close to our highway and the downtown core.

[img=http://s14.postimg.org/oicsdxgv1/West_end_downtown.jpg]

Is that not still in the Heritage district though? Or are you saying (and I hope and pray that it's not the mentality of DT residents) that it's OK to build where the lower income people live DT but not where the elite or influential people reside?

[ed0797]

Originally Posted by urbanlover76

Is that not still in the Heritage district though? Or are you saying (and I hope and pray that it's not the mentality of DT residents) that it's OK to build where the lower income people live DT but not where the elite or influential people reside?

As I quote almost every person on this subforum, the heritage in this section is minimal, you'll have low opposition. Almost everyone has no view anyways , the base of the hill slopes slowly so those homes on the bottom see their neighbours and the top of southside hills. Those on the top will most likely see over any well placed 15+ storey building. The location is optimal!

I also hold no prejudice against wealth types. Everyone who owns a home or lives in a community, has a valid opinion of what goes near or in it.

[mrjanejacobs]

The west-end of downtown has virtually no residents located directly in the places identified by eddy. It's mainly industrial and heavy commercial. It's because the heritage quality of this area is minimal and or sporadic matched with lots of surface parking lots and dilapidated buildings that we propose increased development.

And personally I wouldn't support a high minimum (it's pretty unconventional/out-of-practice to do so), but I would support new high minimums which are closer to 15-20 stories.

Moving further west, I would support lifted height restrictions.

[urbanlover76]

Originally Posted by Townie709

For companies wishing to set up office space in our great city, the west end is most certainly the way to go. It is a run down, neglected portion of our downtown in the area of the delta hotel, the cabot complex, city hall, ect. It holds minimal heritage value when compared to the beloved east end (including the heritage shopping districts of water and duckworth street)

Most of this land suitable for tall development. As there are few residents who's "views" of the harbour are not already blocked by taller structures, the west end is the perfect place to develop 16+ story buildings with little opposition. We've actually been pushing for the height restrictions in this area to be lifted, or rather a height minimum to be put in place.

It is very important to think to the future and ride the wave of the economic boom we're experiencing to the best of our ability. We all know that. But the fact is, we've got something unique here whether you can appreciate it or not. Residents are passionate about their city and will do all they can to protect what makes it unique. But, that doesn't mean we cannot build high-density tall office/residential buildings. Right now in St. John's, we have oodles of pieces of land in the west end suitable for large highrise developments that can be built without destroying any of what makes us the city that we are.

If your company wants to build office space, than they had better go to the west end where they will see little legitimate opposition. Proposing something above 15-16 stories in the east end pointless as it will get shot down faster than... something that's really fast! and rightfully so.

That's exactly what we are trying to do. I have done considerable research and yes we all know St. John's is unique, however at the same time your province and city have some of the very brightest minds in the country. In my condo building there are about 300 residents from Newfoundland who would come home in a heart beat if they could obtain work in their home province and city, I am here in Calgary last week and this week meeting with a large company here and have been speaking to employees and much to my surprise a vast majority of employees with them are from St. John's or surrounding areas. They all say the same thing they want to move back home but their industry or field of study is not predominate in Newfoundland.

That is why the company I work for is trying to partner with a local company to develop these buildings so that we can get those industries here and get the people who love their home province and city so much can possibly come home. With your recent government budget it appears you guys need more private corporate enterprise to come there.

[Townie709]

Originally Posted by mrjanejacobs

The west-end of downtown has virtually no residents located directly in the places identified by eddy. It's mainly industrial and heavy commercial. It's because the heritage quality of this area is minimal and or sporadic matched with lots of surface parking lots and dilapidated buildings that we propose increased development.

And personally I wouldn't support a high minimum (it's pretty unconventional/out-of-practice to do so), but I would support new high minimums which are closer to 15-20 stories.

Moving further west, I would support lifted height restrictions.

I agree. I would think 16-23 stories would be the ideal height for developments in the west end in the area of, say, Fortis Place. Anything more than that would likely be too overpowering.

I also think that we should use up all land closest to the core before we expand furthur west to areas such as the oceanex parking lot. The Oceanex parking lot is a great place for future (and taller) developments further down the line, but I really think we should be filling in the desolate west end of DT before we go there. But that's just my opinion,

[mrjanejacobs]

Trust me - we're the last people who are going to stand in your way if you try to erect an 18 story building in the west-end of downtown.

We really aren't your opposition. But we just want to underscore that there are smart and cost-saving ways of manoeuvring the regulations and gaining public support. At the same time, we will not sacrifice our downtown and heritage district at any cost, even if it means lots of jobs and bringing people home. We need to stand for something and we refuse to believe that we can't have both!

[mrjanejacobs]

Originally Posted by Townie709

I agree. I would think 16-23 stories would be the ideal height for developments in the west end in the area of, say, Fortis Place. Anything more than that would likely be too overpowering.

I also think that we should use up all land closest to the core before we expand furthur west to areas such as the oceanex parking lot. The Oceanex parking lot is a great place for future (and taller) developments further down the line, but I really think we should be filling in the desolate west end of DT before we go there. But that's just my opinion,

I don't disagree. Point being: there is still a limit needed in the west-end of downtown, in my opinion, and in the meantime.

[Townie709]

Originally Posted by urbanlover76

That's exactly what we are trying to do. I have done considerable research and yes we all know St. John's is unique, however at the same time your province and city have some of the very brightest minds in the country. In my condo building there are about 300 residents from Newfoundland who would come home in a heart beat if they could obtain work in their home province and city, I am here in Calgary last week and this week meeting with a large company here and have been speaking to employees and much to my surprise a vast majority of employees with them are from St. John's or surrounding areas. They all say the same thing they want to move back home but their industry or field of study is not predominate in Newfoundland.

That is why the company I work for is trying to partner with a local company to develop these buildings so that we can get those industries here and get the people who love their home province and city so much can possibly come home. With your recent government budget it appears you guys need more private corporate enterprise to come there.

Definitely! I agree 100%

We would love nothing more than to welcome the MANY Newfoundlanders scattered around the country home and to be able to provide them with a place to work in the industry they've chosen. We have a real potential to experience huge growth providing it's smart growth. And we do have the space to facilitate that growth and it does not necessarily mean bulldozing any part of the heritage district. We have enough available land in the west end to fuel that growth without changing the fundamentals of what people love about St. John's.

For example, here's a crude map I did last fall of the west end and possible highrise sights and I missed a few too (there are also plenty a little further west). As you can see, we have tons of room to grow and I urge you, if it is in your power, to encourage your company to propose a development in this area of the city which is in desperate need of revitalization.

[Copes]

Originally Posted by urbanlover76

That's exactly what we are trying to do. I have done considerable research and yes we all know St. John's is unique, however at the same time your province and city have some of the very brightest minds in the country. In my condo building there are about 300 residents from Newfoundland who would come home in a heart beat if they could obtain work in their home province and city, I am here in Calgary last week and this week meeting with a large company here and have been speaking to employees and much to my surprise a vast majority of employees with them are from St. John's or surrounding areas. They all say the same thing they want to move back home but their industry or field of study is not predominate in Newfoundland.

That is why the company I work for is trying to partner with a local company to develop these buildings so that we can get those industries here and get the people who love their home province and city so much can possibly come home. With your recent government budget it appears you guys need more private corporate enterprise to come there.

I assure you, you are preaching to the choir. Someone else said it best, but keep in mind, we are not your opposition. We are on this forum because we are development enthusiasts. It is a "skyscraper page" after all. Most of us want to see some taller structures here. You are speaking to us about the same things we discuss here frequently, and even more recently, have spoken publically about as a group.

However, we are also providing you with the reality of our city. There are areas that are off-limits. There is really no debating that. I came to St. John's with the same mentality that you have, and would still probably be considered less concerned about heritage preservation than most. There are areas, however, that citizens simply will not accept development. To combat this, the movement for the west-end has gained momentum. St. John's WANTS more development, it is the perfect time to ENCOURAGE development, and we here are all proponents of development. However, there are certain areas that it simply would never be accepted. We are simply informing you of where those areas are, and explaining to you why.

Research is great and all, but probably this discussion with us is some of the better research you will be able to do. We track the pulse of the city when it comes to development. We can tell it to you straight.

Also, don't put much value into the CBC comments. There are a lot of idiots who comment on those sections, however, they do not represent the city as a whole. As you have seen there is a vocal group (affectionately called the "rubber group crowd" ) who tend to oppose anything. I warn you now you will square off against them. However, the average Joe in St. John's recognizes the need for development and really I find that good proposals receive support, as they should. Especially if the developer shows an interest / desire to consider and integrate the area in which they are developing.

Also, keep in mind that without knowing the exact site it becomes harder to speculate as to what sort of reception you might receive. We're just trying to be general, it is entirely possible that your site might be one people are aching to see something done with.

[jeddy1989]

This all seems a bit too familiar ..

[urbanlover76]

A big thank you for this lively discussion. It has given me a snapshot of what we will be possibly be facing starting in the fall.

I look forward to continuing this further when I get more detailed information on the sites and what sort of design the buildings may look like.

One thing that I will and can promise you is that there will be ample public consultations for this possible proposal.

[Townie709]

Originally Posted by urbanlover76

A big thank you for this lively discussion. It has given me a snapshot of what we will be possibly be facing starting in the fall.

I look forward to continuing this further when I get more detailed information on the sites and what sort of design the buildings may look like.

One thing that I will and can promise you is that there will be ample public consultations for this possible proposal.

Awesome! But it would probably be best not to share too much information about any proposal before it's ready to be made public. We've had a problem with certain fourmers intentionally and repeatidely feeding us false information about large proposals that never existed just to discourage us and to be a pain.

I am in no way accusing you of doing this or questioning your intentions, but it would be best to keep information relating to future proposals off this forum until it is ready to be made public. We don't want to jeopardize any proposal or anyone's position by leaking information about a development prematurely. We also don't want to be mislead, whether intentional or not. (again, not accusing you of any ill-intentions)

Appreciate the discussion and hopefully we'll hear more about this in the fall when it's public!

[urbanlover76]

Originally Posted by Townie709

Awesome! But it would probably be best not to share too much information about any proposal before it's ready to be made public. We've had a problem with certain fourmers intentionally and repeatidely feeding us false information about large proposals that never existed just to discourage us and to be a pain.

I am in no way accusing you of doing this or questioning your intentions, but it would be best to keep information relating to future proposals off this forum until it is ready to be made public. We don't want to jeopardize any proposal or anyone's position by leaking information about a development prematurely. We also don't want to be mislead, whether intentional or not. (again, not accusing you of any ill-intentions)

Appreciate the discussion and hopefully we'll hear more about this in the fall when it's public!

I have NO intention of divulging any specific information, once again I am not that stupid. What I will be able to get into would be general site specific and general height and design conversations.

[Copes]

Originally Posted by urbanlover76

I have NO intention of divulging any specific information, once again I am not that stupid. What I will be able to get into would be general site specific and general height and design conversations.

And I think I speak for everyone when I say we would love to provide feedback, both our own thoughts and a realistic impression of what sort of reception you may receive from both council and from citizens.

[Architype]

I just read trough the interesting discussion from today in this thread, but with a sense of irony and déjà vu.

Moderators, maybe you should start a thread called "St Johns, Questions & Answers about the city", or some similar title; it would suit these kinds of discussions better than the community thread.

Any developer coming to St. John's would or should have researched many of these aspects long before even contemplating a proposal in the area. However, I suppose this forum would be among good places to start.

[crackiedog]

Originally Posted by Architype

I just read trough the interesting discussion from today in this thread, but with a sense of irony and déjà vu.

Moderators, maybe you should start a thread called "St Johns, Questions & Answers about the city", or some similar title; it would suit these kinds of discussions better than the community thread.

Any developer coming to St. John's would or should have researched many of these aspects long before even contemplating a proposal in the area. However, I suppose this forum would be among good places to start.

I have to agree with Architype.
Big feeling of deja vu reading through all this comments. Reminds me of the conversation stirred up by a certain individual with the initials C.C. I for one will take all this talk about some mysterious developer with a grain of salt. Remember the old saying, "Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me"!

[mrjanejacobs]

Originally Posted by crackiedog

I have to agree with Architype.
Big feeling of deja vu reading through all this comments. Reminds me of the conversation stirred up by a certain individual with the initials C.C. I for one will take all this talk about some mysterious developer with a grain of salt. Remember the old saying, "Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me"!

lol.