Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Once again this is an example from the past. I know 2007 isn't that far, but things have really changed a lot since then.

There was an initial shift around 2015, not because of Justin Trudeau though he did ride on it. (It wasn't just in Canada.)

And then we had another one pushing things even further along in the 2020s.

I haven't noticed any change in Ontario in terms of people wanting more religion in schools or funding religious schools. If that's what you are referring to.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by Acajack

No one does studies like this in Canada, much less gets opinions like this published in major newspapers.

* NB scurries off to Google some obscure exception to this statement *

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Racist? No. Of the few who would think about it, Islamism would probably be seen by most as a distortion of Islam.

The idea there is a wide gulf is the distortion.

Originally Posted by Loco101

I Googled it and every poll that came out over the last decade had the majority of Ontarians against funding separate Catholic school boards. Support for the Catholic system has fallen over time as well.

The silent majority is against it but the loud majority will very much vote only on this issue.

As Ajack eluded too. There is now a substantial Muslim population in many Ontario ridings that would be very supportive of having their own public schools. In Quebec private schools are already publicly funded. Though this doesn't seem to be an issue around religion?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Nashe

* NB scurries off to Google some obscure exception to this statement *

Is the fairly generalized absence of such scrutiny in Canada a positive or a negative?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I haven't noticed any change in Ontario in terms of people wanting more religion in schools or funding religious schools. If that's what you are referring to.

I agree there don't appear to be any formal or even informal requests. I was thinking more about what the response would be if someone did ask.

My sense is that it would provoke a malaise and at least one of the seriously considered options could very well be "sure, don't think it would be that big a deal".

A strong majority of Canadians (at least outside of Quebec) have a very very strong eagerness to appear tolerant in all circumstances as this is a major part of their national identity.

So the default position is always to accept (almost) anything.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

The idea there is a wide gulf is the distortion.




The silent majority is against it but the loud majority will very much vote only on this issue.

As Ajack eluded too. There is now a substantial Muslim population in many Ontario ridings that would be very supportive of having their own public schools.

As I mentioned before I don't think there is any type of push for this happening at the moment, which of course doesn't mean there won't be one in the future. I mean the Catholic school system is right there with a huge target on it, and demographics are changing fast. (It might not be Muslims or just Muslims either. It could be other groups as well.)

Parents have already been somewhat successful recently in getting their kids exempted from sex ed and music classes in public schools, by citing religious reasons.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Islam is not a race.

I know. But many people accuse those opposed (or even simply criticizing) Islam of being "racist".

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A strong majority of Canadians (at least outside of Quebec) have a very very strong eagerness to appear tolerant in all circumstances as this is a major part of their national identity.

So the default position is always to accept (almost) anything.

This is absolutely true. Does Quebec not have this trait or is it manifested differently because they see themselves as downtrodden and therefore justified in taking action that English Canada sees as intolerant? Quebec certainly bristles at being told they are less tolerant than the ROC. In contrast Alberta seems to embrace this assessment.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Racist? No. Of the few who would think about it, Islamism would probably be seen by most as a distortion of Islam.

She says "we have to stop with this idea that Islamism is different from Islam"... She argues Islam is basically Islamist, because it's a religion that pretends to regiment the entire society. There is no such thing as "moderate Islam" according to her.

She's an Algerian woman by the way.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

much less gets opinions like this published in major newspapers.

I thought so. No even in Québec ?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I thought so. No even in Québec ?

A bit more than in the ROC for sure, but definitely less than in France.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

This is absolutely true. Does Quebec not have this trait or is it manifested differently because they see themselves as downtrodden and therefore justified in taking action that English Canada sees as intolerant? Quebec certainly bristles at being told they are less tolerant than the ROC. In contrast Alberta seems to embrace this assessment.

"Tolerance" is definitely not elevated to a status as the ultimate virtue in Quebec as it is in the ROC.

I am not sure if it's really that related to Quebecers seeing themselves as the little guys or if it's something else related to the culture. Perhaps a latent Catholic vs Protestant thing?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

She says "we have to stop with this idea that Islamism is different from Islam"... She argues Islam is basically Islamist, because it's a religion that pretends to regiment the entire society. There is no such thing as "moderate Islam" according to her.

She's an Algerian woman by the way.

Not sure of her political label but a large share of the most vocal conservative, right wing and even far right people in France are North African, Muslim (often lapsed), or at least from minorities: Sonia Mabrouk, Jean Messiha, Christine Kelly, Rachel Khan, Éric Zemmour, etc.

[New Brisavoine]

Zemmour is Jew. And Messiha is a Coptic Christian from Egypt I believe?

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Is the fairly generalized absence of such scrutiny in Canada a positive or a negative?

Likely lack of interest.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I definitely don't see charter schools happening in Ontario. What I could see is the Catholic schools becoming specialized schools for the arts or trades and maybe some other things.

That's basically the same thing.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

In Quebec private schools are already publicly funded. Though this doesn't seem to be an issue around religion?

Private schools are partially funded by the government in Quebec. When my kids were that age the government subsidy was around 7000 dollars per child per year. It left 3000-5000 dollars for the parents to pay out of pocket, depending on the school.

In order to qualify for the funding a private school must abide by the same Ministry of Education rules and programs closely. So these private schools don't have much freedom to choose their own way. Beyond enriching and bolstering programs above with that Ministry demands.

Private schools that want to do their own thing more (even if they still have Ministry stuff they need to abide by) aren't eligible for government funding.

There are very of them that forgo the funding.

As you say it's not about religion, though a good number of the private schools that get the funding are religious. Quebec being Quebec, most of the private schools in the province are former collèges classiques that were a small network of private schools run by the Catholic church in the days before we had a public school system. The collèges cost parents money and didn't have room for everyone, so lots of kids were uneducated.

Most of the old collèges classiques today are "cafeteria Catholic" or "lapsed Catholic" in character. The one my kids went to had quite a few Muslim kids who attended it as the parents felt it instilled better values than public schools. (Direct quotes from the parents of some of my kids' friends.)

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Private schools are partially funded by the government in Quebec. When my kids were that age the government subsidy was around 7000 dollars per child per year. It left 3000-5000 dollars for the parents to pay out of pocket, depending on the school.

In order to qualify for the funding a private school must abide by the same Ministry of Education rules and programs closely. So these private schools don't have much freedom to choose their own way. Beyond enriching and bolstering programs above with that Ministry demands.

Private schools that want to do their own thing more (even if they still have Ministry stuff they need to abide by) aren't eligible for government funding.

There are very of them that forgo the funding.

As you say it's not about religion, though a good number of the private schools that get the funding are religious. Quebec being Quebec, most of the private schools in the province are former collèges classiques that were a small network of private schools run by the Catholic church in the days before we had a public school system. The collèges cost parents money and didn't have room for everyone, so lots of kids were uneducated.

Most of the old collèges classiques today are "cafeteria Catholic" or "lapsed Catholic" in character. The one my kids went to had quite a few Muslim kids who attended it as the parents felt it instilled better values than public schools. (Direct quotes from the parents of some of my kids' friends.)

Interestingly I think BC has the same. Both supposedly liberal places. In the US and really the rest of the world putting public funds into private school is a far right policy given how it segregates education and subsidizes the wealthy at the expense of the public system though the public system isn't really starved in either case in Canada.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Interestingly I think BS has the same. Both supposedly liberal places. In the US and really the rest of the world putting public funds into private school is a far right policy given how it segregates education and subsidizes the wealthy at the expense of the public system though the public system isn't really starved in either case in Canada.

What is BS? Did you mean BC?

[Acajack]

I think Alberta is the province that is closest to Quebec (though not identical) with its charter schools.

Anyone in Alberta can apply for a charter school permit and get funding from the province.