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  #2361  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2019, 5:20 AM
Will O' Wisp Will O' Wisp is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Of course you can. The NYC MTA just cancelled a half-billion dollar subway tunnel renovation that was supposed to begin in just a few days. They claim they found a cheaper/easier way to do it.

I'm sure every agreement has specific language re. non-completion of contract terms. Isn't this why you have lawyers?
That's an entirely different situation. The L line renovations aren't using contractors for the most part, and so MTA hasn't issued any large construction contracts. Certainly they're not using them at the level that HSR is. For this project MTA is primarily using it own workers, making its own construction plans, and making its own relationships with suppliers and subcontractors. That means MTA doesn't need any contracts, since as both the project sponsor and prime contractor MTA would be signing a contract with itself. And that would just be silly.

MTA is fairly unusual within the US in that it combines these two usually separate parties under one roof, at least for major repairs (new construction like the 2nd avenue subway uses the more usual method). It has the advantage of giving the MTA complete and utter control over the project to make whatever changes it wants at any time it wants, but the lack of any legally binding agreements means the scope of the project can suddenly and radically change without warning (which usually leads to huge delays and massive cost overruns). A large percentage of HSR's cost overruns and delays have been from project changes, under a system where CAHSR went into the construction business itself they'd likely be even higher.


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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
But a house in the Central Valley wouldn't be next to the station, obviously. You have to factor that in. Someone who values a cheap big house in the CA interior isn't gonna be living in a TOD. They would have to drive a distance, and probably pay for parking, competing with intercity riders.

Putting aside other issues, do you think there's a large cohort of people willing to spend like 25% of their pretax income on daily commuting?
It sounds stupid, but spending $20k+ on commuting honestly makes economic sense for many people working in the bay area. Average rent for a two bedroom apartment in SF is $4,650 a month, or ~$56,000 a year. The average house in Madera is $232,400, which with a 3.92% 30 year APR would cost $1,099 a month or ~$13,000 a year. So for someone looking to raise a family you could buy a house in Madera, spend $100 every working day commuting via HSR to SF, and still be saving $17,000 a year over trying to rent a two bedroom apartment in SF. If you worked from home once a week you'd be saving $23,000.

Of course that's making the very big assumption that housing prices in the bay area will stay at their current ridiculous levels. That's the real weakness of the whole HSR commuting plan.
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  #2362  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2019, 9:50 AM
BrownTown BrownTown is offline
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Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp View Post
It sounds stupid, but spending $20k+ on commuting honestly makes economic sense for many people working in the bay area. Average rent for a two bedroom apartment in SF is $4,650 a month, or ~$56,000 a year. The average house in Madera is $232,400, which with a 3.92% 30 year APR would cost $1,099 a month or ~$13,000 a year. So for someone looking to raise a family you could buy a house in Madera, spend $100 every working day commuting via HSR to SF, and still be saving $17,000 a year over trying to rent a two bedroom apartment in SF. If you worked from home once a week you'd be saving $23,000.

Of course that's making the very big assumption that housing prices in the bay area will stay at their current ridiculous levels. That's the real weakness of the whole HSR commuting plan.
The home owner would also have to pay property taxes, insurance, upkeep etc. which will hurt that calculation a bit more.

But yeah, this could all be better achieved for a fraction of the cost by upzoning areas near existing transit and building new transit lines followed by subsequent upzoning of more of the peninsula. Also there's always the potential for another tech crash which will send home prices tumbling in a heartbeat. Hell, California simply changing their stupid property tax laws that let these millionaires get away with paying incredibly tiny amounts of property taxes would cause home prices to tumble.
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  #2363  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2019, 8:18 PM
Will O' Wisp Will O' Wisp is offline
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Originally Posted by BrownTown View Post
The home owner would also have to pay property taxes, insurance, upkeep etc. which will hurt that calculation a bit more.

But yeah, this could all be better achieved for a fraction of the cost by upzoning areas near existing transit and building new transit lines followed by subsequent upzoning of more of the peninsula. Also there's always the potential for another tech crash which will send home prices tumbling in a heartbeat. Hell, California simply changing their stupid property tax laws that let these millionaires get away with paying incredibly tiny amounts of property taxes would cause home prices to tumble.
On that we agree, but SF is just so damn resistant to upzoning. When stuff like this is a best case scenario for a developer trying to build new housing in the bay area, a $30 billion dollar rail line almost seems like the simpler option. That's my guess as to why SF has always been the firmest supporter of HSR, and as the richest city in CA they have a tenancy to drag the rest of the state along with them.

As a San Diegan though I'm still not 100% okay with having my tax dollars fund a project that I'm almost certain will never directly benefit me. I have zero faith HSR is going to reach my city, best I'm hoping for are improvements to the LOSSAN corridor. Prop 1A as written was a bit of a political trick. For the full Sacramento to San Diego network we're probably looking at a final price tag of $150-200 billion dollars. Even in the rosy early predictions the final price tag was close to $100 billion. And yet Prop 1A only gave CAHSR $9 billion and assumed the ballences was going to come from somewhere. The Fed hasn't funded local transportation projects more than 50% in decades, and even that 50% tends to top out at $2-3 billion. The rest was always going to come from statewide CA taxes. If you had straight up told CA voters they'd be paying $80 billion for an HSR line they might not have passed Prop 1A.

Even now I have little confidence that CA voters will agree to spend the extra $30 billion to tunnel through the Tehachapi pass in the near future. The new governor has implied he wouldn't support it, and CAHSR's own plans seem to show a lack of faith it will happen. Still, an HSR line from Bakersfield to SF with the potential to be expanded to LA at some point in the future is better than just throwing away the money in a pointless political stunt I suppose.
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  #2364  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2019, 7:55 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp View Post
Even now I have little confidence that CA voters will agree to spend the extra $30 billion to tunnel through the Tehachapi pass in the near future. The new governor has implied he wouldn't support it, and CAHSR's own plans seem to show a lack of faith it will happen.
Ten years ago the feds refused to fund a tunnel for the DC Silverline. A similar strategy presents itself for CAHSR -- no federal funding for the ridiculous amount of tunneling needed to avoid spooking horses. Pull the plan back to a mostly-surface, horse-spooking one and save $5 billion or you don't get a federal grant.

130+ years ago, my hometown of Cincinnati set about building a 300+ mile railroad due south to Chattanooga because no private investor could get the cheap bonds that the city could and the line required two huge bridges and 27 tunnels, which threw a lot of uncertainty into the financing. They ran out of money in the middle of the Kentucky hills and had to go back to voters a second time.

The second bond issue passed. FFWD to 2019 and the thing is still a prodigious earner for the city. The city earns hundreds of millions per decade in direct leasing revenue as well as millions per year in property tax from the huge yard that sits within city limits.
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  #2365  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2019, 11:12 AM
nito nito is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I don't believe it. Sorry. Show me data that DB HSR has a heavy component of commuters.
142mn journeys were made on Deutsche Bahn Long Distance in 2017 which is close to 5x Amtrak’s ridership and not far off 50% more than Metro North Rail Road (North America’s busiest commuter rail network). I think it highly likely that a large proportion of that number is commuter based on similarities to the UK intercity network where competitive journey times, pricing, speed, high frequencies and good origin and destination connectivity make commuting a legitimate possibility.

Super commuting is a reality in the UK as well, primarily driven by the crazy house prices in London.
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  #2366  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2019, 10:01 PM
jamesinclair jamesinclair is offline
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Stopped by last week, the construction is really massive

[IMG][/IMG]
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  #2367  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2019, 10:13 PM
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Please post all the pics you can since the CHSRA flickr page is only updated once a month and they're past that already this latest period. Not sure why a massive project that needs to maintain all the continued public support it can and reaffirm progress is being made doesn't do photo Instagram/facebook/website whatever updates on practically a daily basis.
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  #2368  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2019, 10:46 PM
jamesinclair jamesinclair is offline
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Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
Please post all the pics you can since the CHSRA flickr page is only updated once a month and they're past that already this latest period. Not sure why a massive project that needs to maintain all the continued public support it can and reaffirm progress is being made doesn't do photo Instagram/facebook/website whatever updates on practically a daily basis.
Their flickr updating pattern aligns with student employee schedules. My guess is they have a Fresno State intern do them.

I took a few more photos on a DSLR, I have to get them onto my computer and upload them.
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  #2369  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2019, 11:04 PM
chaunceyjb chaunceyjb is offline
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Originally Posted by jamesinclair View Post
Their flickr updating pattern aligns with student employee schedules. My guess is they have a Fresno State intern do them.

I took a few more photos on a DSLR, I have to get them onto my computer and upload them.
Thank you! I agree. Looks to me like the last photos were taken in November. I'd particularly like to see how the work on Cedar Viaduct looking the other way is coming along.
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  #2370  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2019, 12:59 AM
CastleScott CastleScott is offline
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^ For construction pics: take Hwy 99 south from Sacramento (Sacto) towards Fresno when you get to the San Joaquin River there's a giant new bridge were it crosses and there's several spots around Turlock and also Fresno for pics.
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  #2371  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2019, 4:00 AM
jamesinclair jamesinclair is offline
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Originally Posted by chaunceyjb View Post
Thank you! I agree. Looks to me like the last photos were taken in November. I'd particularly like to see how the work on Cedar Viaduct looking the other way is coming along.

DSC_0909_38289 by J Sinclair, on Flickr

DSC_0918_38298 by J Sinclair, on Flickr

The graffiti reaches about 6 feet up, which shows how massive this thing is

DSC_0929_38309 by J Sinclair, on Flickr

Further south

DSC_0935_38315 by J Sinclair, on Flickr
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  #2372  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 4:48 PM
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^^^ Thank you for posting those! Great shots. Also there are a bunch more on that user page for those interested.
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  #2373  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 4:49 PM
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A few new photos on the CHSRA flickr page.
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  #2374  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 5:04 PM
jamesinclair jamesinclair is offline
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Forgot I took photos of the 180 tunnel as well

DSC_0875_38256 by J Sinclair, on Flickr

DSC_0871_38252 by J Sinclair, on Flickr
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  #2375  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 7:45 PM
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Thanks for the photo updates!
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  #2376  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2019, 6:32 PM
chaunceyjb chaunceyjb is offline
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That last picture of the 180 tunnel is kinda weird. The porta potties look tiny.
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  #2377  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2019, 6:50 PM
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Yeah that is some funky perspective. If you look closely though you can see the bulldozers are on top of the mound. Welcome BTW....
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  #2378  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2019, 7:03 PM
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This thing looks like the elevated highways found scattered around Fallout 3.
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  #2379  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2019, 7:10 PM
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^

I take such genuine delight in not knowing what you're talking about.
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  #2380  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2019, 10:40 PM
jamesinclair jamesinclair is offline
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Originally Posted by chaunceyjb View Post
That last picture of the 180 tunnel is kinda weird. The porta potties look tiny.
Its a big hole! And theyre still digging.

...And I dont quite get it. From north to south...

The line is elevated over the river, and then elevated over the UP tracks.

Then goes ground level, and then well underground to go below a freaking canal and 180.

Right after it pops back up to an elevated train station.

And then even higher up for the Cedar viaduct.

Why didnt they go over 180 instead of under?
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