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  #2041  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2019, 3:45 PM
buzzg buzzg is offline
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This model of living is blowing up in major cities all over the world, especially US. Tends to be in large expensive cities, generally to save money – will be interesting to see if it gains momentum here. Google "subscription living" – it's like a long-term hostel essentially.
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  #2042  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2019, 3:50 PM
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Originally Posted by buzzg View Post
This model of living is blowing up in major cities all over the world, especially US. Tends to be in large expensive cities, generally to save money – will be interesting to see if it gains momentum here. Google "subscription living" – it's like a long-term hostel essentially.
I can see its appeal in the London, NYC, Hong Kong type places with sky high rents, but in Winnipeg, a city where you can share a decent apartment with someone for $500 a month, I'm not so sure.
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  #2043  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2019, 4:57 PM
EdwardTH EdwardTH is online now
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I can see its appeal in the London, NYC, Hong Kong type places with sky high rents, but in Winnipeg, a city where you can share a decent apartment with someone for $500 a month, I'm not so sure.
I don't know if it's been a while since you've rented but it's unlikely that a 2-bedroom for $1k/month is going to be "decent". You could probably find a pretty good 1-bedroom for that price.
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  #2044  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2019, 4:59 PM
3de14eec6a 3de14eec6a is offline
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I can see its appeal in the London, NYC, Hong Kong type places with sky high rents, but in Winnipeg, a city where you can share a decent apartment with someone for $500 a month, I'm not so sure.
exactly this

I recently moved out of a 1 BR apartment in OV that I was paying $600/mo for. And the neighbourhood isn't worth much more than that anymore.
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  #2045  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2019, 5:18 PM
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I don't know if it's been a while since you've rented but it's unlikely that a 2-bedroom for $1k/month is going to be "decent". You could probably find a pretty good 1-bedroom for that price.
That's what I was thinking, a 1 bedroom as that's what someone really hard up would consider sharing.

But judging by 3de's comment above, you can apparently get your own apartment for not much more than that anyway...
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  #2046  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2019, 6:24 PM
Wolf13 Wolf13 is offline
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I can see its appeal in the London, NYC, Hong Kong type places with sky high rents, but in Winnipeg, a city where you can share a decent apartment with someone for $500 a month, I'm not so sure.
Honestly I'm totally for it. Winnipeg's tendency is to deny a market trend until the last possible second. The consumer also still requires a certain amount of time to understand a product once it's active in the market place.

So if Wpg waits 10 years to do what Toronto is, it will still need a year to "get it" once it hits the market. So why not test the market and see if we're more ready than we thought? It's a tall ask to demand developers to do this, but the market is strong, the market is younger and more adaptable, and in an age where technology makes distances shrink and everybody travels, we're not as disconnected from major trends.

I'd say we're ready for this and the developer recognizes this. Crossing my fingers.
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Originally Posted by EdwardTH View Post
I don't know if it's been a while since you've rented but it's unlikely that a 2-bedroom for $1k/month is going to be "decent". You could probably find a pretty good 1-bedroom for that price.
Agreed. Rents have been moving up across the country.
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  #2047  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2019, 6:57 PM
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^ Fair enough, the developer can give it a shot, it's their money. But I'm not sure that the need for it really exists in Winnipeg as the market is simply not the same here...that project appears designed to address the problem of exorbitant housing costs, and we don't really have that here.
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  #2048  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2019, 8:05 PM
Gravity Wins Gravity Wins is offline
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Long time lurker, just signed up to join discussion on this one.

Let's not forget who may be a prime market for a building like this: students. Shared common space is pretty standard for a lot of student housing. And Osborne Village is still a desirable area for young people. Living next to strip malls and a highway isn't right for everyone (looking at you, The Arc on Pembina)
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  #2049  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2019, 4:35 PM
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Fair point that Winnipeg may not see tonnes of developments like this, the way one might in expensive global cities like London, New York. However, I trust that a developer spending hundreds of thousands and going through a risky City approval process knows best what the market demand for this is.

I really don't think $600 1-BR apartments exist in Osborne Village anymore. You might find that a little further afield (eg, Corydon area) if you're lucky, but, since we're talking about consumer demand here, I'd assume a lot of people really don't want to live in a 100 year-old building with 40-50 years of deferred maintenance and upgrades. A lot of people do want new buildings, facilities, etc. even if they have only a small space of their own.
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  #2050  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2019, 5:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Gravity Wins View Post
Long time lurker, just signed up to join discussion on this one.

Let's not forget who may be a prime market for a building like this: students. Shared common space is pretty standard for a lot of student housing. And Osborne Village is still a desirable area for young people. Living next to strip malls and a highway isn't right for everyone (looking at you, The Arc on Pembina)
Welcome aboard. Hope you decide to stick around for more than just this discussion though!

Basically agree with all your points here. I'm curious to see what sort of floorplans are available with the Arc though.
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  #2051  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2019, 8:10 PM
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I'm going to guess that that $600/month in the village is for The Roslyn or one of the old blocks on Roslyn... most people would not consider that "decent" housing these days. Most of those units are a disaster.

I don't think it will be long before we see some major upgrades or replacements for some of the apartment blocks on Roslyn, east of Osborne. It's prime real estate.
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  #2052  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2019, 8:13 PM
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I'm going to guess that that $600/month in the village is for The Roslyn or one of the old blocks on Roslyn... most people would not consider that "decent" housing these days. Most of those units are a disaster.

I don't think it will be long before we see some major upgrades or replacements for some of the apartment blocks on Roslyn, east of Osborne. It's prime real estate.
You would think. It's a little sad that the skylines of most urban neighbourhoods in Canada's larger cities have been completely transformed over the last decade, while Osborne Village's is pretty much unchanged since the early 80s when Evergreen Place went up. There has been at least some development, but except for a couple of low/midrises along Wellington and I guess now the one by the Winter Club, almost all of it is 6 storeys or less.
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  #2053  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2019, 8:16 PM
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You would think. It's a little sad that the skylines of most urban neighbourhoods in Canada's larger cities have been completely transformed over the last decade, while Osborne Village's is pretty much unchanged since the early 80s when Evergreen Place went up.
Would the city even allow anything tall ever again in the village if someone even wanted to? That's the big problem right now.

The A&W/Circle K lot would be great for a tall slim tower and commercial podium (maybe with the house behind it too) but do the rules even allow anything above 4-6 storeys?
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  #2054  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2019, 9:38 PM
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Would the city even allow anything tall ever again in the village if someone even wanted to?
Basically, no. Not now anyway.

The secondary plan for the area was written chiefly through consultation with elderly residents of the neighbourhood who don't want to see anything tall (even if they live in skyscrapers themselves), and some kind of Jane Jacobs-inspired notion that midrise buildings are the ideal and that Osborne Village has enough tall buildings.
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  #2055  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 4:11 PM
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Can anyone speak to the long term commercial viability of Osborn? News of the Toad doesn't seem to bode well (are they paying exorbitant rent?), and a number of Osborn institutions have closed in the last few years. There's also the location on the corner of Osborn and Stradbroke that appears to be cursed.

If you're building SROs, who for, and what about the area is a selling point?
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  #2056  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 4:48 PM
Winnipegger Winnipegger is online now
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
You would think. It's a little sad that the skylines of most urban neighbourhoods in Canada's larger cities have been completely transformed over the last decade, while Osborne Village's is pretty much unchanged since the early 80s when Evergreen Place went up. There has been at least some development, but except for a couple of low/midrises along Wellington and I guess now the one by the Winter Club, almost all of it is 6 storeys or less.
Winnipeg has an interesting housing stock, and I believe its unique characteristics are what is hindering high-rise and mid-rise development in our higher density neighborhoods.

I'd argue that:
  1. Winnipeg has a significantly older housing stock than most other Canadian cities
  2. We had and continue to have large swaths of land available for greenfield development not too distant from downtown
  3. While downtown is a major employment centre for sure, there are significant employment centres scattered around outer edges of the city as well meaning that residential development near the periphery isn't necessarily a hindrance to those that work on the outer edges, and for those that do commute downtown, commute times historically haven't been an issue

These factors mean that single detached housing in Winnipeg has and continues to be relatively cheap, so the trade-off between single detached housing (which is probably considered the most desirable type of housing by most people in North America) and apartment or condo living isn't that high, both in terms of monetary costs and time costs.

So when prospective citizens are considering living in an apartment versus living in a detached house, the cost differential is small compared to the differential in Toronto or Vancouver. The result is that while vacancy rates remain low, there isn't massive pent up demand for multi-family units in core areas, and for other reasons those that do demand multi-family units are choosing to locate in suburban areas which have seen significant investment in multi-family dwellings.

Like most Canadian cities, Winnipeg underwent an apartment tower (and to certain extent, office tower) boom in the 1970s and 1980s. Three of the main driving factors of the apartment tower boom in this era were driven by Federal policies, the high interest rate environment making detached housing costly, and high levels of immigration from European countries.

Into the 1990s, Winnipeg's population growth virtually stalled and demand for multi-family dwellings was nearly non-existent. By the mid 2000s, things have reversed and population growth is at record levels with the caveat that interest rates are still at all time lows which has pushed up housing prices across the country, but Winnipeg still remains one of the most affordable single-detached housing markets in Canada. The immigrants coming to Winnipeg today are different in the sense that they have more economic wealth with many actively choosing Winnipeg because of it's cheap housing market - how many large, brand new housings in new developments are occupied by multi-generational newly immigrated families? I'd wager it's many, and this is different than the choices that would have been made by the immigrants coming to Canada in the 1970s and 1980s.

In short, Winnipeg has a unique mix of immigration, land supply, older housing stock, neighborhoods relatively close to downtown, and dispersed employment centres which I believe all depress the price of housing here. The result is that the cost difference between single detached and rental/condo choices are relatively small, leading many to choose single detached. This ultimately depresses investment in multi-family dwellings, especially those in the core in need of renovation.
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  #2057  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 4:58 PM
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Yeah, of course the old people don't want tall buildings. Never mind that the area is already halfway a highrise city...they got theirs, screw the rest of you.

That being said, as long as density keeps increasing, it's all fine.
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  #2058  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 5:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Winnipegger View Post
Winnipeg has an interesting housing stock, and I believe its unique characteristics are what is hindering high-rise and mid-rise development in our higher density neighborhoods.

I'd argue that:
  1. Winnipeg has a significantly older housing stock than most other Canadian cities
  2. We had and continue to have large swaths of land available for greenfield development not too distant from downtown
  3. While downtown is a major employment centre for sure, there are significant employment centres scattered around outer edges of the city as well meaning that residential development near the periphery isn't necessarily a hindrance to those that work on the outer edges, and for those that do commute downtown, commute times historically haven't been an issue

These factors mean that single detached housing in Winnipeg has and continues to be relatively cheap, so the trade-off between single detached housing (which is probably considered the most desirable type of housing by most people in North America) and apartment or condo living isn't that high, both in terms of monetary costs and time costs.

So when prospective citizens are considering living in an apartment versus living in a detached house, the cost differential is small compared to the differential in Toronto or Vancouver. The result is that while vacancy rates remain low, there isn't massive pent up demand for multi-family units in core areas, and for other reasons those that do demand multi-family units are choosing to locate in suburban areas which have seen significant investment in multi-family dwellings.

Like most Canadian cities, Winnipeg underwent an apartment tower (and to certain extent, office tower) boom in the 1970s and 1980s. Three of the main driving factors of the apartment tower boom in this era were driven by Federal policies, the high interest rate environment making detached housing costly, and high levels of immigration from European countries.

Into the 1990s, Winnipeg's population growth virtually stalled and demand for multi-family dwellings was nearly non-existent. By the mid 2000s, things have reversed and population growth is at record levels with the caveat that interest rates are still at all time lows which has pushed up housing prices across the country, but Winnipeg still remains one of the most affordable single-detached housing markets in Canada. The immigrants coming to Winnipeg today are different in the sense that they have more economic wealth with many actively choosing Winnipeg because of it's cheap housing market - how many large, brand new housings in new developments are occupied by multi-generational newly immigrated families? I'd wager it's many, and this is different than the choices that would have been made by the immigrants coming to Canada in the 1970s and 1980s.

In short, Winnipeg has a unique mix of immigration, land supply, older housing stock, neighborhoods relatively close to downtown, and dispersed employment centres which I believe all depress the price of housing here. The result is that the cost difference between single detached and rental/condo choices are relatively small, leading many to choose single detached. This ultimately depresses investment in multi-family dwellings, especially those in the core in need of renovation.
Fair enough, and I think this captures well a lot of the story of residential development in Winnipeg in the last 40-50 years. That said, multi-family (eg, not detached single-family houses) starts have made up significant proportions of the total number of housing starts in recent years. So while Winnipeg still continues to be a relatively inexpensive housing market, someone must be buying those hundreds and hundreds of multi-family units that are built across the city each year.
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  #2059  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 5:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Spocket View Post
Yeah, of course the old people don't want tall buildings. Never mind that the area is already halfway a highrise city...they got theirs, screw the rest of you.

That being said, as long as density keeps increasing, it's all fine.
For sure. And I don't know if it's necessarily a bad thing that heights are limited in Osborne Village... in any case, new construction is happening. The overall skyline might not be changing as dramatically as it did in the '70s, and Osborne Street has obviously been frozen in time (though the Osborne Village Inn site redevelopment will be underway soon), but there's been a lot of small residential projects underway throughout the area. Pretty good for a neighbourhood that's apparently 'dying.'
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  #2060  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 8:24 PM
EdwardTH EdwardTH is online now
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Can anyone speak to the long term commercial viability of Osborn? News of the Toad doesn't seem to bode well (are they paying exorbitant rent?), and a number of Osborn institutions have closed in the last few years. There's also the location on the corner of Osborn and Stradbroke that appears to be cursed.

If you're building SROs, who for, and what about the area is a selling point?
Yes the Toad is paying ridiculous rent so they're making a smart business move to a building they own across the street. Osborne Village's main problem right now is a couple of landlords who get used to being able to charge whatever they wanted back when there was no competition from the Exchange or West Broadway. Residential development is chugging along on all the side streets so I don't know why we're always panicking.

Also I'm not sure exactly which "institutions" have been lost but whatever they were they've certainly been replaced by more appealing businesses already. The Zoo? Sure when I was 19 I liked to go party there and grab a 24 at the vendor on the way home. The village is more mature now and maybe now the same place we remember partying in our youth but I don't think it's declined in any way, frankly the Zoo was gross. Papa George's was also gross and the only thing good about it was that it was open after the bars closed, Cornerstone is much better. The Basil's site is not cursed except by the aforementioned landlord, Basil. Movie Village/Music Trader? Surely you guys aren't shocked that a CD and movie rental place is not viable in 2019....

Most of my favourite spots in the village now are new-ish places that didn't exist when I first moved to the area - Little Sister, Super Deluxe, Nuburger, etc...
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