Manitoba chiefs want cellphone revenue

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by Marc B.

Canadians should be angry about land claims. When the final bill comes in after the last claim is resolved, say in about 80 or 90 years from now, it'll be ridiculously expensive. Very conservatively, I'd put the grand total around $50billion. The claimants, though, are only asking for what they are legally entitled to. Put the blame where it's due: 200 years of poor management, yet meticulous record keeping, first by the British government and then by our own Department of Indian Affairs.

Why would you think that all claimants are asking only for what they are legally entitled to? The Caledonia claim, for example, is obviously highly debatable. There is a huge incentive to make marginal or completely bogus claims, particularly given that a lot of Canadians are so intimidated by the prospect of blockades and violence that they are likely to urge the government to "just give them whatever they want".

[Marc B.]

Well, sure, there's an incentive to making claims, both real and frivolous. It's a growth industry keeping lots of folks on both sides, lawyers, historians, project managers, band managers, buearocrats, gainfully employed. It's been my experience, though, that for a claim to be accepted by INAC for negotiation, or to be litigated through the courts, it has to be historically or legally legitimate, or it'll get tossed out fairly quickly.

I'm not sure Canadians are asking the federal and provincial governments to give in on land claims to avoid confrontation. The Caledonia stand off should have ended by now if that was the case. But, I don't live in Toronto anymore and stopped reading the Star and Spectator regularly, so I don't know, maybe the situation is different there. Caledonia is a tough situation and for a few reasons that I can't really get into, a tough case.

[204]

The chiefs and their posses are the ones who drive brand new F-350's and stay at Place Louis Riel when they frequent the 'peg for "conferences".

Must be nice to have all those comforts when everyone else on the reserve is barely scrapping by.....

[ScrappyPeg]

Originally Posted by Marc B.

Canadians should be angry about land claims. When the final bill comes in after the last claim is resolved, say in about 80 or 90 years from now, it'll be ridiculously expensive. Very conservatively, I'd put the grand total around $50billion. The claimants, though, are only asking for what they are legally entitled to. Put the blame where it's due: 200 years of poor management, yet meticulous record keeping, first by the British government and then by our own Department of Indian Affairs.

Um - when Canadians get angry about land claims (which makes some think that that just means more land and therefore more tax dollars to have to keep up...) they get labelled racist. My opinion is just that it should be settled as quickly as possible and then it's done. I would prefer if the British goverment foot the bill. Either way, just get it over with, it's a very tiresome subject already. Most of the aboriginal people who are most visible to us in Winnipeg will benefit zero from any of it. Very typical in Canada to throw someone elses money at a problem and then expect it to disappear.

The chiefs should be looking at ways to empower their own people, and not to keep relying on taxpayer funds - it's like some sort of addiction unto itself.

[Roger Strong]

Yes, Canada has an obligation to settle treaty claims. But we also give aboriginals far more than we agreed to in any treaty. I doubt that any treaty specified that reserves would get things like:

- Airports
- Winter roads
- Schools
- Medical care and reserve aid stations
- Hydro electricity
- Phone service
- Internet service
- Modern homes
- Water purification
- etc, etc, etc.

I doubt that any treaties specified the preferential hiring for government jobs that aboriginals get. Or preferential treatment in colleges and universities. Or constant free training - I have a step-brother who got Novell CNE training, Microsoft MCSE training and more.... and when he stops showing up for work the government gives him more training and places him in a new job.

If they commit a crime, I doubt that any treaty specifies the free legal help they get, not available to us mere mortals.

I doubt that any treaty specifies that when part of a reserve has a falling out with the other, one side could leave and have the government build them a whole new reserve - costing millions of dollars - for free. This has happenned at least twice in recent years. See the new reserve being built next to Lynn Lake - at the same time that people abandon Lynn Lake because of the mine closure.

All these extra services are big bargaining chips. We MUST settle the land claims, but there is room for negotiation on what the final settlement must be. Should a racist chief promote violence or blockades to have treaty obligations met, well, we should also look at what services we *aren't* obligated to provide.

[Mayor Quimby]

Originally Posted by Roger Strong

Yes, Canada has an obligation to settle treaty claims. But we also give aboriginals far more than we agreed to in any treaty. I doubt that any treaty specified that reserves would get things like:

- Airports
- Winter roads
- Schools
- Medical care and reserve aid stations
- Hydro electricity
- Phone service
- Internet service
- Modern homes
- Water purification
- etc, etc, etc.

I doubt that any treaties specified the preferential hiring for government jobs that aboriginals get. Or preferential treatment in colleges and universities. Or constant free training - I have a step-brother who got Novell CNE training, Microsoft MCSE training and more.... and when he stops showing up for work the government gives him more training and places him in a new job.

If they commit a crime, I doubt that any treaty specifies the free legal help they get, not available to us mere mortals.

I doubt that any treaty specifies that when part of a reserve has a falling out with the other, one side could leave and have the government build them a whole new reserve - costing millions of dollars - for free. This has happenned at least twice in recent years. See the new reserve being built next to Lynn Lake - at the same time that people abandon Lynn Lake because of the mine closure.

All these extra services are big bargaining chips. We MUST settle the land claims, but there is room for negotiation on what the final settlement must be. Should a racist chief promote violence or blockades to have treaty obligations met, well, we should also look at what services we *aren't* obligated to provide.

That is that most information or ignorance of the treaties, I have ever seen. Your either a racist with an agenda or some dude spouting off about a subject, they have no real knowledge in.

First off, The SCC already has judged that the treaties must keep with the time, so a medicine bag each month becomes doctors and hospitals. A teacher becomes schooling (no more then anyone else) and university. They were promised 30 acres per head. Horses, which is transportation. Etc.

The fact is, most First Nations, do not live in subsidized lifestyles that we are paying for. They live in cities work and pay taxes just as we do. You need to read about and the history behind it. It isn't black and white, but white people still have it easy comparably.

[Greco Roman]

Originally Posted by Mayor Quimby

That is that most information or ignorance of the treaties, I have ever seen. Your either a racist with an agenda or some dude spouting off about a subject, they have no real knowledge in.

First off, The SCC already has judged that the treaties must keep with the time, so a medicine bag each month becomes doctors and hospitals. A teacher becomes schooling (no more then anyone else) and university. They were promised 30 acres per head. Horses, which is transportation. Etc.

The fact is, most First Nations, do not live in subsidized lifestyles that we are paying for. They live in cities work and pay taxes just as we do. You need to read about and the history behind it. It isn't black and white, but white people still have it easy comparably.

Dude, what he said isn't that bad, and much of it is true.

[ReginaGuy]

Originally Posted by Mayor Quimby

That is that most information or ignorance of the treaties, I have ever seen. Your either a racist with an agenda or some dude spouting off about a subject, they have no real knowledge in.

First off, The SCC already has judged that the treaties must keep with the time, so a medicine bag each month becomes doctors and hospitals. A teacher becomes schooling (no more then anyone else) and university. They were promised 30 acres per head. Horses, which is transportation. Etc.

The fact is, most First Nations, do not live in subsidized lifestyles that we are paying for. They live in cities work and pay taxes just as we do. You need to read about and the history behind it. It isn't black and white, but white people still have it easy comparably.

Its very immature to label someone as racist every time they disagree with a minority group

[Andy6]

Quimby, wasn't that basically what Roger was saying -- that treaty entitlements in our times are satisfied by the billions that are spent on natives through Indian Affairs and numerous special programs?

You can't have that plus demand large portions of the land base that supports the modern economy that provides the revenue that allows the government to fund all of your special programs.

[Roger Strong]

> That is that most information or ignorance of the treaties, I have ever seen.

Unfortunately, no.

> Your either a racist with an agenda

I'll leave the racism to you. You're better at it.

> First off, The SCC already has judged that the treaties must
> keep with the time, so a medicine bag each month becomes
> doctors and hospitals.

Except that remote *non-aboriginal* communities don't get doctors and hospitals. They don't get airports, or hydro or telephone or internet unless they pay for it themselves.

I remember a few years back when one small non-aboriginal community in the northern interlake was trying to raise funds to bring in a hydro-line instead of using generators - it was going to cost *them* a fortune. Meanwhile an aboriginal community not only was getting a hydro line courtesy of use mere tax-paying mortals, but they had the gall to sue Manitoba hydro because the pole every couple hundred feet was going to interfere with trap lines.

> A teacher becomes schooling (no more than anyone else) and university.

The rest of us don't get university, MCSE training or other post secondary education paid for - why should aboriginals? This isn't "keeping up with the times".

> They were promised 30 acres per head.

If their population increases, they can subdivide their existing land - or choose not to - like the rest of us.

>Horses, which is transportation.

Again, remote non-aboriginal communities don't free airports and roads. This isn't "keeping up with the times".

> It isn't black and white, but white people still have it easy comparably.

I have relatives who live in the city, and get all sorts of advantages merely for being treaty aboriginal. (Or are federal government job placements and MCSE training for example part of traditional Cree culture?) THEY have it easy comparably.

[Mayor Quimby]

They never received the land that was promised that is what the TLE is doing and why it costs so much. If being aboriginal is easy street, pick up and move your ass to a reserve for 30 days. Then you tell me. how easy they have it.

Wow, the hate for First Nations is strong, here, and you would hardly know that this country owes them for every penny ever made here.

[Roger Strong]

> They never received the land that was promised that is what the TLE is
> doing and why it costs so much.

Agreed. But they also receive much more than was promised in other ways. That doesn't absolve us of honoring our agreements, but neither are we bound to continue providing the extra services. If the chiefs demand that the treaties be met to the letter, well, that goes both ways.

> If being aboriginal is easy street, pick up and move your ass
> to a reserve for 30 days.

Nice try.

The place I call home, where I still have a small property, is a town smaller than most reserves. I'd much rather live there than in the city. But like the reserves, there aren't a lot of jobs, etc. It's not easy street either.

So rather than claim that the world owes me a living *where* I want it to owe me a living, I live where the jobs, hospitals and other things I consider necessities are. Starting with nothing I got a job, paid for my own education, and built a career.

Being aboriginal doesn't prevent anyone from doing the same; it even helps in many ways.

> Wow, the hate for First Nations is strong,

Nah. It's just your hate for everyone else.

[ScrappyPeg]

It doesn't seem to me that anyone is professing a 'hate' for anyone here. Seems more like people are generally frustrated at the notion that along with the 4 billion (est) per year funnelled into Indian Affairs, billions more will have to be paid out to settle 100 year old treaties.

And who said that most aboriginals don't live in subsidized housing financed by tax dollars? Not sure where you get your info from, but any aboriginal living on a reserve is a kept person where the home and community has been paid for by tax dollars. In speaking to some of my Aboriginal coworkers, seems they all agree on one thing, the only way to succeed is to move off of the reserve and make your own way into the world - they express feeling tired of the whole process as well, but they chose not to stop living their life waiting for something to happen. I guess some of us here prefer to keep the Aboriginal population right where they are, living in poverty and despair.

As long as the system remains the way it is, and as long as aboriginal leadership fosters more dependancy, I don't suspect there will be an improvement on reserves, for the 'every day' aboriginal person or with the suspected 77% overall unemployment rate amongst aboriginal people - and all that despite the push for employment equity, training and education programs geared specifically towards Aboriginal people (see: Aboriginal Center).

I won't apologize for saying I am one of the frustrated ones. Blame it on slow government draggin' their butts, or blame it on greedy self-serving Aboriginal leaders, not sure it matters. I would just like us all to move on.

[Mayor Quimby]

All your comments are racist, from the funneling of money to they all live in subsidised houses to they all get free education. Wow, you all seem to forget the land you live on, the job you have, the roads you drive were all stolen from them, all of it. Maybe , they should just sue for reparations.

[Greco Roman]

Originally Posted by Mayor Quimby

All your comments are racist, from the funneling of money to they all live in subsidised houses to they all get free education. Wow, you all seem to forget the land you live on, the job you have, the roads you drive were all stolen from them, all of it. Maybe , they should just sue for reparations.

I've come to the conclusion that you have some close ties to the native community, otherwise I don't see where you come with this "racist" nonesense. That's what your claim is; nonesense. Lighten up.

[Biff]

I am so sick of this "we owe them" bull shit. How the hell is giving a family on a reserve a couple acres of land that was taken from their ancestors 200 fucking years ago going to help them today. It will still always be someone owes them something. Chist a lot of immigrants come to this country with less, live 2 or 3 families to a house, work multiple jobs, learn english and contribute to society. They get off their ass and do something. They don't bitch for handouts because no one is going to give them one. I feel bad for these reserves that have corrupt leaders that soak the community so they can get rich but you know what...if it isn't working for you there - fucking leave and try somewhere else.

Fuck!!!

[ScrappyPeg]

Originally Posted by Mayor Quimby

All your comments are racist, from the funneling of money to they all live in subsidised houses to they all get free education. Wow, you all seem to forget the land you live on, the job you have, the roads you drive were all stolen from them, all of it. Maybe , they should just sue for reparations.

Just one example of a mentality that keeps the Aboriginal people right where the government wants them - dependant. Playing the victim and catering to that mentality only serves to keep people from moving forward. You appear to think in a very simplistic way - nothing is that black and white. Oooops, that was a racist saying, wasn't it!

By the way, my family stole nothing from anyone - they were lured here by the same government that made broken promises to the Aboriginal people so be careful how your throw accusations around. They thought they were coming to a better place but they had to work 100x as hard just to end up as poor as they were prior to coming here. Sorry, I don't feel like I owe anything to anyone other than my family, who worked very hard and asked nothing of anyone.

[Mayor Quimby]

Originally Posted by ScrappyPeg

Just one example of a mentality that keeps the Aboriginal people right where the government wants them - dependant. Playing the victim and catering to that mentality only serves to keep people from moving forward. You appear to think in a very simplistic way - nothing is that black and white. Oooops, that was a racist saying, wasn't it!

By the way, my family stole nothing from anyone - they were lured here by the same government that made broken promises to the Aboriginal people so be careful how your throw accusations around. They thought they were coming to a better place but they had to work 100x as hard just to end up as poor as they were prior to coming here. Sorry, I don't feel like I owe anything to anyone other than my family, who worked very hard and asked nothing of anyone.

The difference between immigrants choosing to come here and the First Nations being forced or coerced from their land is lost on you isn't it. The so-called "victim mentality" argument is a red herring and is used by racists to cover up their true feelings. The fact is that First Nations have been victimised for centuries, and still are today. Residential schools, forced on reserves, not allowed to vote, drink or enter cities; all this took place less then 50 years ago and all you people can say is, " get over it." Brilliant stuff.

[ScrappyPeg]

Originally Posted by Mayor Quimby

The difference between immigrants choosing to come here and the First Nations being forced or coericied from their land is lost on you isn't it. The so-called "victim mentality" arguement is a red herring and is used by racists to cover up their true feelings. The fact is that First Nations have been victimised for centuries, and still are today. Residential schools, forced on reserves, not allowed to vote, drink or enter cities; all this took place less then 50 years ago and all you people can say is, " get over it." Brilliant stuff.

Curiously enough, you don't mention that women were only given the right to vote in Manitoba in 1916, and wasn't that the same year they were officially recognized as human beings too? Guess as a woman I'll have to just accept that. Oh, and what year did they start allowing women into 'Men only' bars.....hmmmmmm. Oh, and women who became pregnant and weren't allowed to keep a job, forced to quit? I believe those things occured as recently as the 50's. Let's see, I know of other stories where as a child, my mother was punished harshly for speaking her language on the grounds of her school - by her english speaking teacher, who was from Winnipeg. That sounds suspiciously like someones culture was being taken away, modified, as it were.

I know I know, just get over it. You're just too simplistic.

[Mayor Quimby]

Women got to vote in 1916, First Nation not until the 70s. How long did it take for women to be established in the workforce far too long, and you want the same fate for First Nations ? I hope not.