Time for Vancouver to Tear Down Its Viaducts?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Wait, $80-150 mil? Sh*t, right now we can't even build a gondola for that much.

[trofirhen]

This conversation arc is very interesting, but, as is often the case, is straying from the Viaducts precise issue. Would it be an idea to start a Third Crossing thread?
Does such a thread already exist somewhere? (I cannot find it if it does). A Third Crossing Thread is timely IMHO, as it is going to become more and more necessary and relevant.
I'm not going to start it, for obvious reasons, but perhaps someone else, with more information about it, might be successful. It needs to start being considered seriously, now, ...IMHO.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Here's a real comparison. Property taxes on $1M properties in cities across Canada:

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/...b07bc729777ace

Here's something for you:



Here's another gem:

I knew you would google this to show and tell, but you can't compare properties like that: million dollar "houses" in Vancouver often means condos and townhouses with less lot footprint, whereas those in other places are large single family houses. Many of the West side houses are worth 5mil or more, meaning that home owners pay many times more than the 1 million benchmark number, shown at $2,468 for Vancouver, but definitely way more than that. 1mil in Hamilton can buy you a mansion with a large lot, whereas in Vancouver a similar home may fetch 10 mil. I fact, many of Vancouver's million-dollar housing are stacked on top of each other in the form of condos, utilizing very little City serves compared to those in other cities in the country. Overall, the City still collects an insane amount of property taxes, and with an increasing number of condo units built over the years, should get even more. Hence the 8.2% increase is very fishy.

Originally Posted by moosejaw

Vancouver is a very dense city with a very small footprint. Compared to other cities such as Calgary, Ottawa (which is massive) and Toronto (which is six times the area) Its no surprise that Vancouver has lower property taxes than those cities.

Don't be fooled by WarrenC12's graph. That does not show how much Vancouverites pay when compared to our compatriots in other parts of the country. That chart is based on a 1 million dollar house, but our condos and houses here cost way more than that.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

This conversation arc is very interesting, but, as is often the case, is straying from the Viaducts precise issue. Would it be an idea to start a Third Crossing thread?
Does such a thread already exist somewhere? (I cannot find it if it does). A Third Crossing Thread is timely IMHO, as it is going to become more and more necessary and relevant.
I'm not going to start it, for obvious reasons, but perhaps someone else, with more information about it, might be successful. It needs to start being considered seriously, now, ...IMHO.

No, but there is this. http://skyscraperpage.com/forum/show...183458&page=10

If you’re willing to wait a week or two (maybe more), I should be able to make a less basic proposal for the Main Street crossing.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Wait, $80-150 mil? Sh*t, right now we can't even build a gondola for that much.

Well, TBF, it’s in the weird spot where it’s difficult to get enough money for from the general TransLink Budget and difficult to get outside funding for.

[scottN]

Originally Posted by Vin

I knew you would google this to show and tell, but you can't compare properties like that: million dollar "houses" in Vancouver often means condos and townhouses with less lot footprint, whereas those in other places are large single family houses. Many of the West side houses are worth 5mil or more, meaning that home owners pay many times more than the 1 million benchmark number, shown at $2,468 for Vancouver, but definitely way more than that. 1mil in Hamilton can buy you a mansion with a large lot, whereas in Vancouver a similar home may fetch 10 mil. I fact, many of Vancouver's million-dollar housing are stacked on top of each other in the form of condos, utilizing very little City serves compared to those in other cities in the country. Overall, the City still collects an insane amount of property taxes, and with an increasing number of condo units built over the years, should get even more. Hence the 8.2% increase is very fishy.



Don't be fooled by WarrenC12's graph. That does not show how much Vancouverites pay when compared to our compatriots in other parts of the country. That chart is based on a 1 million dollar house, but our condos and houses here cost way more than that.

Looking at my property tax statement from last year, the mill rate was around 0.25% which matches the article but then there were substantial additional charges for water, sewer, garbage, recyling, etc. Do the other cities to that too or do they bake those services into the mill rate?

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by scottN

Looking at my property tax statement from last year, the mill rate was around 0.25% which matches the article but then there were substantial additional charges for water, sewer, garbage, recyling, etc. Do the other cities to that too or do they bake those services into the mill rate?

Those are Metro Vancouver levies. Separate from your municipalities' property taxes.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Wait, $80-150 mil? Sh*t, right now we can't even build a gondola for that much.

here is one of them, crazy to think how cheap it was back then. here is a break down of the costs and the limits of construction. this is just one of many of the proposals, and this was one of the more extensive ones. though it used a bridge instead of tunnel, and didn't include transit.


source

the document that is from even includes detailed income statements and balance sheets on other pages, including hand drawn renderings of what it might have looked like.

[cabotp]

Even if we account for inflation $150 Million in 1960 is only worth $1.28 Billion today.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Haters gonna hate, I liked TLJ better than ROTJ...

TLJ is worse than the worst prequels for the primary reason that it's the longest Star Wars movie of them all.

Originally Posted by cabotp

Even if we account for inflation $150 Million in 1960 is only worth $1.28 Billion today.

'Only?'

Considering greater modern environmental and construction standards, and the fact a lot of key lots needed were empty industrial lots, $736M adjusted for inflation for the crossing and connection into Downtown and Upper Levels seems accurate.

What was the lane number/highway width?
Could you allow us to download this report please? That'd be nice.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Vin

I knew you would google this to show and tell, but you can't compare properties like that: million dollar "houses" in Vancouver often means condos and townhouses with less lot footprint, whereas those in other places are large single family houses.

A million dollars is a million dollars. They use the same currency we do across the country... Have you lived anywhere else? The grass is not greener.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by fredinno

TLJ is worse than the worst prequels for the primary reason that it's the longest Star Wars movie of them all.



'Only?'

Considering greater modern environmental and construction standards, and the fact a lot of key lots needed were empty industrial lots, $736M adjusted for inflation for the crossing and connection into Downtown and Upper Levels seems accurate.

What was the lane number/highway width?
Could you allow us to download this report please? That'd be nice.

I simply used an inflation calculator from 1960 to now. Even with inflation the tunnel would of been much cheaper in 1960 than it is today.

[Migrant_Coconut]

There's also 50+ years of rising labour/construction standards and property values to consider; expropriating Coal Harbour alone would probably be another $1B.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

A million dollars is a million dollars. They use the same currency we do across the country... Have you lived anywhere else? The grass is not greener.

I don't think you get it. Nervermind.

Originally Posted by scottN

Looking at my property tax statement from last year, the mill rate was around 0.25% which matches the article but then there were substantial additional charges for water, sewer, garbage, recyling, etc. Do the other cities to that too or do they bake those services into the mill rate?

You should take a look at the previous article I posted and see who's actually paying the most.
https://vancouversun.com/opinion/op-...-a-second-look

Bringing everything back to topic: still very sceptical how the City is going to get funding to tear down the viaducts and do all the proposed works to link the roads, among others related to it. The City has been very quiet regarding this, and this is usually a telltale red flag warning sign.

[scottN]

Originally Posted by Vin

Bringing everything back to topic: still very sceptical how the City is going to get funding to tear down the viaducts and do all the proposed works to link the roads, among others related to it. The City has been very quiet regarding this, and this is usually a telltale red flag warning sign.

I think it will end up as an item buried in the 2023-2025 capital plan that will be put out for voters to approve borrowing in parallel with the next civic election!in November 2022. In the last election we approved 300 million dollars of borrowing without any significant public discourse on it.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by scottN

I think it will end up as an item buried in the 2023-2025 capital plan that will be put out for voters to approve borrowing in parallel with the next civic election!in November 2022. In the last election we approved 300 million dollars of borrowing without any significant public discourse on it.

When the removal of the viaducts was approved in 2018, the intent was that the NEFC Public Benefits Strategy would pay the $120 million cost of replacing the viaducts with an alternate street configuration. If the viaducts were replaced with 100 year seismic structures (also $120 million) or retained but upgraded to 50 year lifespan ($90 million) then the cost would have to be covered by the Capital Plan.

In total all the costs associated with removing the viaducts, building the new roads, relocating City infrastructure and temporary traffic management was estimated at $183 miilion [page 47 here]. Another $177 million was budgeted for parks, non-City owned infrastructure work, and an $85 million contingency, putting the total budget at $360 million. Some of that has already been spent, as it includes the design and consultation for the project.

At the time it was clear that this might mean a delay in construction of the replacement, as it relies on the rezonings for the Plaza of Nations and Concord sites being enacted, and triggering the CAC payments to cover the costs. The earliest any work might start would be 2020, but realistically it's more likely to be 2021. The rezonings appear to be progressing, (although Concord might not be as keen as Canadian Metropolitan), and the City are working on the detailed designs of the various replacement elements in the meantime. Other levels of government might fund some aspects of the project.

It's been noted here that the design of the replacement bike and pedestrian structure to replace the Dunsmuir viaduct bike lanes has already had initial public consultation earlier this year. Council approved $39 million for the design and consultancies for all the North East False Creek design work, including the viaduct replacement. The 2019 City Budget showed $13.5 million expenditure this year, and the 2020 draft Budget shows a further $7.7 million next year.

[Vin]

Thanks for the numbers, Changing City. Now would you be able to tell us how much the CACs would be between or among the two or three major developers in the area? Would each be on the hook for more than $100 to 200 mil each?

Again the City has been mum about this, although they should be more open since the CACs are the premise of why most Vancouver residents do not oppose to the viaducts coming down in the first place. Can the City recover the half a billion to be spent?

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by Vin

Thanks for the numbers, Changing City. Now would you be able to tell us how much the CACs would be between or among the two or three major developers in the area? Would each be on the hook for more than $100 to 200 mil each?

Again the City has been mum about this, although they should be more open since the CACs are the premise of why most Vancouver residents do not oppose to the viaducts coming down in the first place. Can the City recover the half a billion to be spent?

750-772 Pacific Boulevard alone churned out $325,494,000 from an additional 1,275,399 net sf.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

750-772 Pacific Boulevard alone churned out $325,494,000 from an additional 1,275,399 net sf.

OK, what percentage of that goes to CAC?


I did a quick calc: Even if the developers were to sacrifice 10% of their Gross Revenue (It's Gross, not Net!), 500mil worth of CAC equates the following:

* 5 bil of gross revenue
* 5,000 units of market housing, priced at 1mil each
* 555 residential floors, assuming 9 units per floor
* About 10 blocks of 56 storey towers

And this is not even considering the vast amount of rental units to be included in this development.

Therefore, for this entire project to be viable, there needs to be 10 blocks ultra-luxurious of 56 - 60 storey residential towers in the area for developers to help pay for the viaduct removal. Otherwise Vancouver residents would be on the hook. Is this achievable, and would developers give up 10% of their Gross income just so that Greg Robertson can fulfill his dream?

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Vin

OK, what percentage of that goes to CAC?

It's all CAC.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Changing City

It's all CAC.

That soft boom you hear in the distance is Vin's head exploding.