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  #2501  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2019, 5:03 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by Car(e)-Free LA View Post
No, you don't. The HSR in the Netherlands isn't used for intra-Netherlands travel: it's used to get to places a few hundred miles away: like Paris. SF-LA is 2:40 HSR, 4:00 door to door. Plane door to door is something like 4:20, whereas driving is about 8:00 door to door. Obviously the train, with ~$60-$80 fares, is the best option. Also, electrified HSR trains have no problem going through mountains at >180MPH, it's just that there haven't been many opportunities to build HSR through mountains yet in the USA; hence, not many routes. It's done all the time in other countries.
LOl not it sint you cant even get a direct train from Tokyo to the mountain areas of central japan unless you go AROUND the mountains. There are few trains that go through mountains, why do you think the shipping rail goes throught eh flat parts of Socal and Arizona to get back east and not through the Rockies. Why do you think the Swiss, itallians and Germans have spend untold billions on Tunnels under tha alps rather than OVER them?

California didnt fail at its rail becasue of lack of will, or becasue of lack of money or becasue of some "evil" conspiracy to ruin the future by those dastardly conservatives (in cali aparently lol)

It failed becasyue HRS across such a massive mountainous, empty area in a country with good road infrasturcure and cheap energy has no bennifit and a massive cost.

In the end thats why it will not work.
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  #2502  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2019, 5:30 PM
BrownTown BrownTown is offline
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Originally Posted by mt_climber13 View Post
It will be revived when a Democratic, hopefully “far left” (but centrist by international standards) president is elected along with majorities in the senate and House, next year.
Western Europe isn't the whole world, lol.
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  #2503  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2019, 5:38 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by mt_climber13 View Post
It will be revived when a Democratic, hopefully “far left” (but centrist by international standards) president is elected along with majorities in the senate and House, next year.

If the dotard can waste billions on a useless monument, surely we can “waste” billions on an HSR system.
Even if "dotard" were to lose, which I wouldn't count on, why would that change the HSR situation in California.

The HSR plans began during the bush years, started in earnest during Obama, and continued during Trumps presidency.

In fact the entire Cali HSR plan has little to do with the national executive at all. Why would a far left president...and I suppose congress too in this fantasy... give the wealthiest state in the country more money to build an unnecessary train?
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  #2504  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2019, 6:47 PM
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LosAngelesSportsFan LosAngelesSportsFan is offline
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Originally Posted by Illithid Dude View Post
Honestly, some private company should just build between LA and San Diego. Imagine the use that would get, with thirty minute end to end times.
i would have used it 3 times over the last 2 weeks if it was built
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  #2505  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2019, 6:50 PM
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LosAngelesSportsFan LosAngelesSportsFan is offline
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
People its not that depressing, The places where high speed rail is built are vastly more densely populated than the USA.

If you want express trains in specific metro areas that makes sense, a statewide Cali bullet train through the central valley and hundreds of miles of rural or even empty land.

Pop per square mile:

Japan 339
UK 650
Netherlands 491
China 142
Germany 235

USA: 84

Building a bullet train across hundreds of miles of rural California was a BAD IDEA from the get go.
This is just a ridiculous post. Really stupid.
Also, have you been on the bullet train between Tokyo and Kyoto? Nothing but empty land
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  #2506  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2019, 6:59 PM
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The North One The North One is offline
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This is horrible and there's no way they're getting more federal funding with this administration. Now if there's ever another attempt at HSP in other parts of the country people can just point to what an incompetent disaster California is, thanks.
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  #2507  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2019, 7:14 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post

Do you have any concept of how much more compact, population dense and FLAT the netherlands is than the proposed system in california.

Do you have any idea how slow a train must go through mountains, how innificient they become when they hit grade in the track? Why do you think train routs through mountains TO THIS DAY are rare and slow?

You really have no idea what you are talking about do you?

The whole reason why HSR in California makes sense is because it is so cheap and easy to build a 200+ mile stretch of 200mph track across the pancake flat Central Valley. The entire Central Valley, over a vast area, varies only slightly in elevation between about 300 feet and about 500 feet above sea level.

The HSR in Spain between Madrid and Barcelona travels over very similar flat, arid terrain. I've seen it with my own eyes.

The TGV in France travels up the side of a very big hill (maybe a mountain) north of Lyon and pops out the other side A 200mph train has so much momentum that it is able to largely coast uphill for a mile or two.

The entire Central Valley run -- roughly 200 miles -- will only be a fractional expense for the entire HSR network. England built the Chunnel but the trains initially terminated in a minor London Station. They had to build a major tunnel under the city to bring them into St. Pancras.

Maybe they should have just abandoned the entire project mid-Chunnel since they didn't have the cash to build the approach to St. Pancras simultaneously.
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  #2508  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2019, 7:17 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by LosAngelesSportsFan View Post
This is just a ridiculous post. Really stupid.
Also, have you been on the bullet train between Tokyo and Kyoto? Nothing but empty land
That is simply untrue there are multiple cities and towns along the route, just becasue it appeard to you to be rural doesnt make that so, the populaiton along that thin costal strip is far higher than the population between LA and San Francsico.

But besides that notice the terrain, thin flat costal strip that literally avoids any elevation cahnge if possible.



Not to mention this is in a country where people live in small dense apartments, usually without cars and if they do have cars the cost of petroleum imported from the other side of the world is prohibitively expensive compare to the USA.

The route in Californai has to cross multiple mountain ranges and through extremely hilly terrain over a much farther distence in less populated areas with little demand for a train due to cheap oil and cars.

This isnt difficult to understand you guys just really really want trains becasue they are cool and, I suppose you had a good time when you went to europe that one time taking the train around Belgium or whatever.

You arent using your brains when considering this idiotic plan.
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  #2509  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2019, 7:20 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
The whole reason why HSR in California makes sense is because it is so cheap and easy to build a 200+ mile stretch of 200mph track across the pancake flat Central Valley. The entire Central Valley, over a vast area, varies only slightly in elevation between about 300 feet and about 500 feet above sea level.

The HSR in Spain between Madrid and Barcelona travels over very similar flat, arid terrain. I've seen it with my own eyes.

The TGV in France travels up the side of a very big hill (maybe a mountain) north of Lyon and pops out the other side A 200mph train has so much momentum that it is able to largely coast uphill for a mile or two.

The entire Central Valley run -- roughly 200 miles -- will only be a fractional expense for the entire HSR network. England built the Chunnel but the trains initially terminated in a minor London Station. They had to build a major tunnel under the city to bring them into St. Pancras.

Maybe they should have just abandoned the entire project mid-Chunnel since they didn't have the cash to build the approach to St. Pancras simultaneously.
Yeah they started in the central valley becasue it was the cheapest, unfortunately the train is leading from nowehrre to nowhere = No demand for a train.

You guys arent considerign the factors that make trains in Europe desirable.

AND EVEN THEN those trains in Europe and Asia are at massive public expense that most americans balk at becasue we dont NESECITATE them as many coutnries do.
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  #2510  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2019, 7:27 PM
mt_climber13 mt_climber13 is offline
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Even if "dotard" were to lose, which I wouldn't count on, why would that change the HSR situation in California.

The HSR plans began during the bush years, started in earnest during Obama, and continued during Trumps presidency.

In fact the entire Cali HSR plan has little to do with the national executive at all. Why would a far left president...and I suppose congress too in this fantasy... give the wealthiest state in the country more money to build an unnecessary train?
More like.. let us keep more of our money for our own state’s needs ( we send much more tax money to the federal government to be dispersed to other states than we receive)

Obama was nowhere near far left. Obamacare, his supposed far left commmunist boogeyman healthcare plan, was a conservative Heritage Foundation idea implemented in Massachusetts by Mitt Romney. So after Carter we’ve had 6 republican presidents in a row (some more sane than others).

When a REAL leftist gets in, like FDR, tax the fuck out of billionaires and pay for HSR and mass rail infrastructure with that- which is how the interstate highway system was built (and the top marginal tax rate was 90%)

And the fact that you say ppl in Japan don’t drive cars when Japan has the world’s leading auto manufacturers and that it works for them because they live in small apartments.. bro have you even been to California??? I mean, outside of Redding? My first apartment in sF I could reach my arms and touch both walls and my bedroom was under my bed. You’re embarrassing yourself.

Last edited by mt_climber13; Feb 14, 2019 at 7:34 PM. Reason: Further proving Obadno wrong
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  #2511  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2019, 7:31 PM
SoCalKid SoCalKid is offline
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Why would anyone use HSR to go from bakersfied to Merced when its cheaper and not much slower and vastly more expensive?

why would you pay for a 5 hour trip between LA and san Fran via train when you can take a plane for under 100 dollars.

Take into account the infrastructure cost (77 billion dollars) / 40 million Cali citizens= $1925

You can pay for many tanks of gas and many plane tickets for every citizens to get them between LA and San Francsico.

The project was totally unfeasable.
Something about this project just makes people invent wildly inaccurate facts, I don't get it. The train, as currently planned, would be 3 hours, not 5. I'm not even going to address the rest of the nonsense you've been spouting, it's just not worth it.
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  #2512  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2019, 7:32 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by mt_climber13 View Post
More like.. let us keep more of our money for our own state’s needs ( we send much more tax money to the federal government to be dispersed to other states than we receive)

Obama was nowhere near far left. Obamacare, his supposed far left commmunist boogeyman healthcare plan, was a conservative Heritage Foundation idea implemented in Massachusetts by Mitt Romney. So after Carter we’ve had 6 republican presidents in a row (some more sane than others).

When a REAL leftist gets in, like FDR, tax the fuck out of billionaires and pay for HSR and mass rail infrastructure with that- which is how the interstate highway system was built (and the top marginal tax rate was 90%)
1. this was already primarily funded by california itself your first point is nonsense.

2. Nobody said he was

3. WHEN A "REAL leftist" gets in there is no garuntee he is going to fund this type of project

4. maybe Novo-FDR can inter American citizens indefinately without cause as well !!
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  #2513  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2019, 7:32 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by SoCalKid View Post
Something about this project just makes people invent wildly inaccurate facts, I don't get it. The train, as currently planned, would be 3 hours, not 5. I'm not even going to address the rest of the nonsense you've been spouting, it's just not worth it.
Nonsense, thats what the articles say about the cost of the train.
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  #2514  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2019, 7:36 PM
SoCalKid SoCalKid is offline
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Nonsense, thats what the articles say about the cost of the train.
I'm talking about the travel time, not cost....
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  #2515  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2019, 7:37 PM
mt_climber13 mt_climber13 is offline
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
1. this was already primarily funded by california itself your first point is nonsense.

2. Nobody said he was

3. WHEN A "REAL leftist" gets in there is no garuntee he is going to fund this type of project

4. maybe Novo-FDR can inter American citizens indefinately without cause as well !!
We’ll build it( I mean, we ARE building it right now as we speak). Just need to regroup and get the costs down. Which is exactly what’s happening now as Newsom said in another statement yesterday as the wildly histrionic mainstream media and bloggers completely blew what he first said out of proportion.
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  #2516  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2019, 7:44 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by mt_climber13 View Post
We’ll build it( I mean, we ARE building it right now as we speak). Just need to regroup and get the costs down. Which is exactly what’s happening now as Newsom said in another statement yesterday as the wildly histrionic mainstream media and bloggers completely blew what he first said out of proportion.
I wouldnt hold my breath for the myriad of reasons I laid out before. The state is better off building rail networks for the Bay Are+ Sacramento and LA-San Diego mega regions.

Then some decades down the line, when the state has many millions more people and severley denser cities to build conencting bullet trains between the exsisting commuter networks.
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  #2517  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2019, 7:51 PM
jg6544 jg6544 is offline
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I wish they were going to complete it as planned because it would have enabled me to avoid the cesspool that is LAX. The last six trips (3 round-trips) I have taken between LA and San Francisco would have been shorter had I driven, calculating them door-to-door. Flights are chronically late leaving and arriving at both airports. SFO was shut down yesterday due to rain.

Unfortunately, the politicians got hold of a good idea and ruined it.
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  #2518  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2019, 8:09 PM
mt_climber13 mt_climber13 is offline
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
I wouldnt hold my breath for the myriad of reasons I laid out before. The state is better off building rail networks for the Bay Are+ Sacramento and LA-San Diego mega regions.

Then some decades down the line, when the state has many millions more people and severley denser cities to build conencting bullet trains between the exsisting commuter networks.
Well yes, this is the plan, isn't it? I don't think anybody really believes that HSR will be fully built out in California within the next 40 years. Even with Dem leaders at federal level it will still be a long time before it's all built out.

I agree that light rail and heavy rail upgrades and expansions in Sacramento, SF, Oakland, San Jose, LA, and San Diego should be prioritized right now above all (The central valley seems completely against mass transit).

I love traveling to DC and using their subway system. It makes everything in California look like a complete joke built by a 9 year old with legos.
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  #2519  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2019, 8:40 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by mt_climber13 View Post
Well yes, this is the plan, isn't it? I don't think anybody really believes that HSR will be fully built out in California within the next 40 years. Even with Dem leaders at federal level it will still be a long time before it's all built out.

I agree that light rail and heavy rail upgrades and expansions in Sacramento, SF, Oakland, San Jose, LA, and San Diego should be prioritized right now above all (The central valley seems completely against mass transit).

I love traveling to DC and using their subway system. It makes everything in California look like a complete joke built by a 9 year old with legos.
NO that wasnt the plan which is why it failed, their plan was to build a train from Bakersfield to Merced

Then expand it to LA and San Francsico by 2030

Then maybe Sacramento and San Diego at some point.

The plan was backwards.
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  #2520  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2019, 11:51 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
NO that wasnt the plan which is why it failed, their plan was to build a train from Bakersfield to Merced

Then expand it to LA and San Francsico by 2030

Then maybe Sacramento and San Diego at some point.

The plan was backwards.

People have had 10 years to understand the plan, but few have. Phase 2 LA>SD is about setting up SoCal for HSR to Phoenix. It has nothing to do with creating a high speed service between DTLA and DTSD (or by extension, SD to the Central Valley or NoCal). It would have upgraded existing corridors to full grade separation and full electrification, enabling speeds of 125mph. It would have not been built until serious planning began for Phoenix HSR.

Phase 2 to Sacramento is a relatively simple and inexpensive improvement to the network. Obviously, if the Pacheco Pass approach is abandoned in favor of Altamont, the wye will not be built and a spur to Sacramento will only entail 60miles of new track construction, none of which will require a tunnel or other exotic engineering.
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