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  #2081  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2022, 11:39 PM
Highwayman Highwayman is offline
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Originally Posted by Ando View Post
I find it unfortunate that most here are talking about fleeing the city and so on and tough or soft on crime and ignoring questions about why it is happening. it largely has its roots in poverty, homelessness and drug abuse. People aren't born to wreak havoc in downtown Winnipeg. So what can be done about it? Right now there is a mayoral race and these issues should be number one. But any mayor is going to need help from the provincial government to pursue certain policies, provide adequate services, and have the resources to do so. Where is the provincial government on all these issues that are afflicting the province's major city and most of its residents? Does anyone know? it's pretty much been crickets on the state of the capital city.
The provincial government as in the Cons have never cared about the city..they are for rural Manitoba and always have been. The Libs were about the city and the NDP was somewhere in the middle. But we have the worst provincial government in power right now and really not much else to choose from either of the other parties.


And as a recovered drug addict myself. Sorry all the money in the world will not stop an addict unless he or she wants it. The issues stems right from HOME. The parents or lack of. These kids just take after their parents and then they have kids and it's the same thing.

Sure we can sit and talk about the homeless all day. But right now don't see any homeless people stabbing people for no reason.. what I do see is peoples fckn kids doing it. And they ain't drug addicts. They are stupid kids that need to be punished so we don't end up with stupid adult's which will create more stupid kids.

I really wish our only issue was homelessness and bus shacks. But as of late it is Safety. And again today another major incident on Main Street. I wouldn't doubt at the rate we are going we hit 60 plus murders and who knows how many assaults. Shit even the refugees fleeing a war are not wanting to be here.
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  #2082  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2022, 12:33 AM
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rrskylar rrskylar is offline
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Originally Posted by Ando View Post
I find it unfortunate that most here are talking about fleeing the city and so on and tough or soft on crime and ignoring questions about why it is happening. it largely has its roots in poverty, homelessness and drug abuse. People aren't born to wreak havoc in downtown Winnipeg. So what can be done about it? Right now there is a mayoral race and these issues should be number one. But any mayor is going to need help from the provincial government to pursue certain policies, provide adequate services, and have the resources to do so. Where is the provincial government on all these issues that are afflicting the province's major city and most of its residents? Does anyone know? it's pretty much been crickets on the state of the capital city.
Poverty or being brought up poor has nothing to do with it, it’s a lack of parenting and an entitled group who have been taught that they are not responsible for their actions!
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  #2083  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2022, 12:36 AM
NewIreland NewIreland is offline
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Originally Posted by rrskylar View Post
Poverty or being brought up poor has nothing to do with it, it’s a lack of parenting and an entitled group who have been taught that they are not responsible for their actions!
Serious question: If a teenager/young adult assaults someone on the street tomorrow and is caught, what are the repercussions?

I know there are a ton of variables, but what's the baseline response?
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  #2084  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2022, 12:43 AM
Highwayman Highwayman is offline
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Originally Posted by NewIreland View Post
Serious question: If a teenager/young adult assaults someone on the street tomorrow and is caught, what are the repercussions?

I know there are a ton of variables, but what's the baseline response?
Teenager nothing. Maybe gets a time out in the back of a Police cruiser.

Adult. Will spend maybe the night in jail with promise to appear in court.
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  #2085  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2022, 12:54 AM
NewIreland NewIreland is offline
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Originally Posted by Highwayman View Post
Teenager nothing. Maybe gets a time out in the back of a Police cruiser.

Adult. Will spend maybe the night in jail with promise to appear in court.
Thank you. So, do our resident criminologists, ethnomasochists, and SJW's think that this is an appropriate response?
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  #2086  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2022, 3:34 AM
steveosnyder steveosnyder is offline
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Originally Posted by NewIreland View Post
Thank you. So, do our resident criminologists, ethnomasochists, and SJW's think that this is an appropriate response?
Does the response reduce crime?

If your question is how should we respond to crime happening, then this is the response we want.

Where the disconnect is happening is we are trying to use a response tool (the police) to prevent crime. If a crime is happening I want the police to come. But they aren’t social programs. Hell, even rrskylar said it (although not in words I would use), it’s a ‘lack of parenting’... we need social programs to help people before they even commit the crimes. Trying to act on the symptom is a fool’s errand. And trying to use the police to prevent crime is even worse.
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  #2087  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2022, 3:59 AM
NewIreland NewIreland is offline
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Originally Posted by Highwayman View Post
Teenager nothing. Maybe gets a time out in the back of a Police cruiser.

Adult. Will spend maybe the night in jail with promise to appear in court.
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Originally Posted by steveosnyder View Post
Does the response reduce crime?

If your question is how should we respond to crime happening, then this is the response we want.

Where the disconnect is happening is we are trying to use a response tool (the police) to prevent crime. If a crime is happening I want the police to come. But they aren’t social programs. Hell, even rrskylar said it (although not in words I would use), it’s a ‘lack of parenting’... we need social programs to help people before they even commit the crimes. Trying to act on the symptom is a fool’s errand. And trying to use the police to prevent crime is even worse.
Canada spends almost a trillion dollars annually on social programs. We spent billions on anti-smoking campaigns... millions of people still smoke. We spent billions on healthy eating initiatives... millions of people still have an unhealthy addiction to fast food in this country. Acting on the symptom (for this fool) is to send a very strong message that getting clean, changing your behavior, and accessing the social problems that are there for people who want to and/or MUST change is the ONLY OPTION. Right now, getting high, robbing people, assaulting people, and basically doing whatever you want with impunity is an option. That option needs to be taken off the table.
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  #2088  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2022, 4:05 AM
plrh plrh is offline
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Originally Posted by steveosnyder View Post
Does the response reduce crime?

If your question is how should we respond to crime happening, then this is the response we want.

Where the disconnect is happening is we are trying to use a response tool (the police) to prevent crime. If a crime is happening I want the police to come. But they aren’t social programs. Hell, even rrskylar said it (although not in words I would use), it’s a ‘lack of parenting’... we need social programs to help people before they even commit the crimes. Trying to act on the symptom is a fool’s errand. And trying to use the police to prevent crime is even worse.
I agree with this. The police do not exist to prevent crime, and they are not able to. Criminals are not rational and deterrence is a myth. Perception is more important than reality for the law abiding.

My partner was a youth lawyer for decades and defended many murderers. Rehabilitation happens more often than not and most major youth criminals need to be parented and not disciplined by the government. Prevention will come from years of investment in CFS and addiction courts. Whenever I read a a horrible news story I tell myself that lesson that NHL refs keep pushing: retaliation is worse than the original crime, vengeance isn't justice.
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  #2089  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2022, 4:20 AM
NewIreland NewIreland is offline
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Originally Posted by plrh View Post
I agree with this. The police do not exist to prevent crime, and they are not able to. Criminals are not rational and deterrence is a myth. Perception is more important than reality for the law abiding.

My partner was a youth lawyer for decades and defended many murderers. Rehabilitation happens more often than not and most major youth criminals need to be parented and not disciplined by the government. Prevention will come from years of investment in CFS and addiction courts. Whenever I read a a horrible news story I tell myself that lesson that NHL refs keep pushing: retaliation is worse than the original crime, vengeance isn't justice.
So, these murderers got arrested, obviously, and had stand before a judge in a court of law (government) and presumably as a result of this experience... turned their lives around (at least some of them)? We can debate the sentencing process all day, but I see the government playing a key role here in sending a strong message to young offenders to turn their lives around... or else. But, you're saying no discipline from the government? Seems contradictory, but okay.
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  #2090  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2022, 4:46 AM
plrh plrh is offline
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Originally Posted by NewIreland View Post
So, these murderers got arrested, obviously, and had stand before a judge in a court of law (government) and presumably as a result of this experience... turned their lives around (at least some of them)? We can debate the sentencing process all day, but I see the government playing a key role here in sending a strong message to young offenders to turn their lives around... or else. But, you're saying no discipline from the government? Seems contradictory, but okay.
I said gov't but I meant Crown. Are all groups funded by the gov't part of the gov't? In many youth cases it's crown vs legal aid ie. gov't vs gov't.

Maybe those young offenders turned their lives around in spite of the court of law.

I agree the gov't plays a key role but not through threats and vengeance against 15 year olds who do not read the news. There is no consideration to the "or else."
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  #2091  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2022, 6:10 AM
NewIreland NewIreland is offline
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Originally Posted by plrh View Post
I said gov't but I meant Crown. Are all groups funded by the gov't part of the gov't? In many youth cases it's crown vs legal aid ie. gov't vs gov't.

Maybe those young offenders turned their lives around in spite of the court of law.

I agree the gov't plays a key role but not through threats and vengeance against 15 year olds who do not read the news. There is no consideration to the "or else."
What constitutes a threat here? I try not to drive over the speed limit because I know that if I do I'll get a hefty fine and possibly lose points, or potentially get my car impounded or even lose my license completely in an extreme case. Plenty of threats there, and... well, it seems to be pretty effective.
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  #2092  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2022, 12:40 PM
roryn1 roryn1 is offline
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The Forks machete slashing (pretty sure everyone’s seen the video) happened Canada Day when I was doing an internship working and living downtown in 2015. I left Winnipeg a month early because I could not handle it for a full summer. Someone was also stabbed and died on my normal 15 min walk to work. I wasn’t strong enough to live and work downtown lol. Don’t get me wrong these things happen in all downtowns but my summer was next level downtown craziness there aha
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  #2093  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2022, 3:37 PM
WildCake WildCake is online now
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Originally Posted by NewIreland View Post
Canada spends almost a trillion dollars annually on social programs. We spent billions on anti-smoking campaigns... millions of people still smoke. We spent billions on healthy eating initiatives... millions of people still have an unhealthy addiction to fast food in this country. Acting on the symptom (for this fool) is to send a very strong message that getting clean, changing your behavior, and accessing the social problems that are there for people who want to and/or MUST change is the ONLY OPTION. Right now, getting high, robbing people, assaulting people, and basically doing whatever you want with impunity is an option. That option needs to be taken off the table.
Anti-smoking campaigns have actually be very successful. They hammered anti-smoking ads, getting more and more visual and gruesome over time. Late 60s, 50% of Canadians 15+ smoked, now we're at 15% and still dropping. They really didn't leave any stone unturned. TV, radio ads, packaging ads, school education, health provider education etc... It went from something that is culturally social and cool to do to something most people find repulsive now. Go to Europe, where anti-smoking wasn't as aggressive. and smoking rates are sitting around 28%. A lot more noticeable when walking in the streets than here.

I can imagine if a true hard-core anti junk food campaign started then the same can happen on that front. Imagine getting a 50% tax on chips and drinks and fast food, directly reinvested in prevention, education and healthcare? People would start paying their share of the healthcare burden.

Yes there are still smokers, yes they still cost the health system money, but these things take a while to turn around. I understand your feeling that people MUST be willing to change if they are in that situation, much like a current smoker MUST to be willing to quit and put in the work to quit smoking. BUT if someone grows up without the social context where smoking is accessible, or cool, or fun, then they are much less likely to smoke, meaning less smoking related healthcare costs from that person never involved in smoking.

Similar for obesity and inactivity. Someone that was a healthy weight and active as a child is much less likely to be obese and inactive as an adult. We all know too many adults that struggle to lose weight because the environment around them is so that encourages weight gain and inactivity. If their life was structured in a way that encouraged active and healthy choices then it is a lot easier for them to manage their health.

Same for crime. Yes statistically someone involved in crime is hard to rehab and reintegrate into society, especially hard crimes and drugs. BUT if the social programs can exist to catch youth BEFORE they caught up in the life of crime where they otherwise would have would be, then a reduction in crime will follow.
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  #2094  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2022, 3:40 PM
BAKGUY BAKGUY is offline
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So, here's the irony of living here.
The victim might be seen by a doctor in 24 hours but in the mean time the criminals are released withint a couple of hours.
Especially the under 18's
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  #2095  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2022, 5:16 PM
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wags_in_the_peg wags_in_the_peg is offline
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so how about THE FORKS development, not the canada youth justice system flaws discussed here. way way way off track.

my 16 yr old daughter works PT at The Forks, when I picked her up last night around 1020 pm, i saw young couples walking hand in hand, i saw/heard reggae'ish music being blarred from a car and 4 young ladies dancing in the parking lot, i saw small groups eating ice cream but I didnt see any security anywhere. I was very happy that on a Tuesday night it still had some life.

now if only 1000 residents lives there....
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  #2096  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2022, 8:59 PM
Highwayman Highwayman is offline
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Originally Posted by wags_in_the_peg View Post
so how about THE FORKS development, not the canada youth justice system flaws discussed here. way way way off track.

my 16 yr old daughter works PT at The Forks, when I picked her up last night around 1020 pm, i saw young couples walking hand in hand, i saw/heard reggae'ish music being blarred from a car and 4 young ladies dancing in the parking lot, i saw small groups eating ice cream but I didnt see any security anywhere. I was very happy that on a Tuesday night it still had some life.

now if only 1000 residents lives there....
I'll jump on this.
Residents won't change the forks issues.

Examples

Portage Place
It has many residential components when built and I'm sure with all of them they have way more the. 1000 residents. And Portage Place is still a dump and dangerous.

Waterfront drive.
Lots of higher end apartments and condo's built over the last 20 plus years. I'm sure they must have added 2000 plus residents to the area if you include the immediate ones on the east exchange. Do you see these people ? No. Is the Park safe even during the day ? Not really. Again residents didn't solve the issue.

The issue will always exist till it is tackled.

Another example from the USA. New York City circa 1970/1980's not the safest place to walk around. Crime was rampant, drugs, murders, gangs etc. New York City today, alot safer as they got tough on crime. Very tough.
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  #2097  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2022, 9:36 PM
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i bet NYC didnt clean things up by "defunding the police" which many support nowadays. just look at all the Twitter feeds when anything about Police is brought up. i agress 100% we need more mental health supports but we also need some kick in the ass reality checks given to some. not sure if that is the police, political leaders, me or you but it needs to happen
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  #2098  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2022, 9:59 PM
Sheepish Sheepish is offline
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Out of curiosity...was it not, at one time, illegal to be intoxicated in public? If so, when did that cease to be the law? Or is it just being ignored now?
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  #2099  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2022, 10:21 PM
cllew cllew is online now
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Out of curiosity...was it not, at one time, illegal to be intoxicated in public? If so, when did that cease to be the law? Or is it just being ignored now?
from tomrees.ca (Rees Dyck Rogala Law Offices)

On occasion, police will detain an intoxicated person in order to take them to a detox centre where the person can sober up. Typically, Winnipeg Police will take the intoxicated person to the Main Street Project, located at 75 Martha Street in Winnipeg. Once the person is sober, they are sent on their way and that is the end of the matter.

In Manitoba, the power to do this comes from the Intoxicated Persons Detention Act (IPDA). To be clear, being intoxicated in a public place is not a criminal offence. Ostensibly, the underlying reason for police to detain intoxicated persons is to protect the public as well as the intoxicated person from harm. The decision to take an intoxicated person into custody under IPDA, however, is within the discretion of the police officer.
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  #2100  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2022, 10:42 PM
NewIreland NewIreland is offline
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Originally Posted by cllew View Post
from tomrees.ca (Rees Dyck Rogala Law Offices)

On occasion, police will detain an intoxicated person in order to take them to a detox centre where the person can sober up. Typically, Winnipeg Police will take the intoxicated person to the Main Street Project, located at 75 Martha Street in Winnipeg. Once the person is sober, they are sent on their way and that is the end of the matter.

In Manitoba, the power to do this comes from the Intoxicated Persons Detention Act (IPDA). To be clear, being intoxicated in a public place is not a criminal offence. Ostensibly, the underlying reason for police to detain intoxicated persons is to protect the public as well as the intoxicated person from harm. The decision to take an intoxicated person into custody under IPDA, however, is within the discretion of the police officer.
So, it's ignored. 👍
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