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  #41  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2020, 9:25 PM
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Nova Scotia did mergers for Halifax and Sydney but as far as the geographical area goes there is only maybe a 40% overlap between the HRM boundaries and the actual metro area. A lot of what's in the municipality isn't in the commutershed and then some parts that are in the commutershed aren't in the municipality. Then there are lots of murky areas that were rural at one point but where more and more people commute to urban jobs.

In the Maritimes there's no clear-cut rule you can use to draw a boundary in most cases because it's small town after small town with houses along the rural roads.

The western boundary of HRM (and the Halifax economic region according to Statistics Canada) looks like this:
I was thinking of Halifax when I wrote my post... I remember driving a long way out of Halifax into solidly rural territory and I was surprised to see HRM garbage bins on driveways.
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  #42  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2020, 9:34 PM
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I was thinking of Halifax when I wrote my post... I remember driving a long way out of Halifax into solidly rural territory and I was surprised to see HRM garbage bins on driveways.
I think the logical eastern edge of "Halifax," as a metropolitan entity, would be somewhere around Porters Lake, about 30-35 kilometres east of the city centre. But you can drive another 90 kilometres east and still see "Halifax"-branded infrastructure. It really is quite weird, and the population that far out is A: very small and B: not especially connected culturally or economically to the city (as they would often be the first to tell you).
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  #43  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2020, 9:35 PM
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The Maritimes are also full of exurban areas that may look like rural areas.

Why all the traffic?


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  #44  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2020, 9:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
It really is quite weird, and the population that far out is A: very small and B: not especially connected culturally or economically to the city (as they would often be the first to tell you).
It was maddening in the early years of amalgamation because politicians were obsessed with talking about how it was a mixed municipality full of farmers and fishermen with special needs that required constant significant consideration. If there was transit funding it had to be offset by similar funding for potholes in Musquodoboit. In reality something like 0.5% of people work in primary industries in the HRM, and a lot of the people who claim to be hard done by rural folk are well-off exurbanites who could have moved to a suburb or urban area if they wanted but chose a large lot subdivision knowing exactly what they were getting into. These exurbanites have historically been hugely subsidized by urbanites, who pay much higher taxes per dollar of municipal service provided.
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  #45  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2020, 11:04 PM
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Statistics Canada has economic regions too. This is on the level of the Lower Mainland rather than metro Vancouver. I wouldn't call Chilliwack a suburb of Vancouver though; to be a classic suburb of a city a significant percentage of the daytime population or commuters in an area need to go to that other city.

Admittedly this has all gotten a lot murkier with suburban jobs and remote work.
Way I see it is that the Vancouver area can be divided up 3 ways.

1) Core Vancouver which I see as the city of Vancouver, Burnaby, New Westminster, the north shore, tri cities, and richmond. Overall theres about 1.8 million people here.
2) Greater Vancouver regional district which is around 2.7 million people, it terminates near abbotsford
3) Lower Mainland, this term is used most in media and seems to imply everything from vancouver to chilliwack to also possibly include squamish. about 3 million people.

I usually use a 4th version for my descriptions, a 2.5) if you will. Way I see it Greater Vancouver should be extended east to include mission and abbotsford, combined thats an additional 200k within the greater vancouver area, so realistically the urban population of Greater vancouver is just 100k shy of 3 million people in 2020.

why do I include abbostford? Abbotsford is connected strongly with langley and surrey and mission, which itself is closely connected to maple ridge which is tied closely to the try cities.

Abbotsford doesn't seem to have it's own core and the city itself is increasingly serving as a cheaper bedroom community for metro vancouverites.
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  #46  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2020, 4:07 PM
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Shakespeare is a suburb of Stratford.

New Hamburg, Baden, Wellesley, Breslau, Elmira, Conestogo, Bloomingdale, St Jacobs, St Clements, Heidelberg, St Agatha, New Dundee, Ayr, Winterbourne and West Montrose function as suburbs of KW-Cambridge.

Aberfoyle, Arkell, Eden Mills, Corwhin and Rockwood suburbs of Guelph.
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  #47  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2020, 4:13 PM
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Originally Posted by urbandreamer View Post
Shakespeare is a suburb of Stratford.

New Hamburg, Baden, Wellesley, Breslau, Elmira, Conestogo, Bloomingdale, St Jacobs, St Clements, Heidelberg, St Agatha, New Dundee, Ayr, Winterbourne and West Montrose function as suburbs of KW-Cambridge.

Aberfoyle, Arkell, Eden Mills, Corwhin and Rockwood suburbs of Guelph.
Suburbs, or exurbs? I've been wondering how to categorize them. Breslau I'd definitely label a suburb, as well as Mannheim which was not on your list, but the others I don't know.

Although when people in K-W speak of "suburbs" (which would be rare), they're usually talking about subdivisions inside the municipal boundaries, like Stanley Park or Forest Heights.
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  #48  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2020, 4:20 PM
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KW-Cambridge is a suburb of the GTA. Like Mississauga/Brampton, it started with its own distinct downtowns/heritage but has evolved into just another bedroom community for Toronto area--especially south Kitchener/Cambridge. Similar things happening especially to Breslau, Wellesley, Conestogo, New Hamburg, Baden, Elmira, St Jacobs, Heidelberg and St Clements. I was driving around all these towns over the xmas break: Breslau is starting a massive new suburb along highway 7 eastward, Wellesley is about to announce another large development, New Hamburg looks like a hideous 905 suburb, St Jacobs is soon going to sprawl south to join Waterloo, Elmira has 2 large tracts undergoing development, while Heidelberg and St Clements appeal more to the large ex-urban estate crowd. Erbsville/Wilmot line is being wrecked by absolute dreck: I was hiking on the westside trail and discovered this nasty suburb that used to be rural farmland/woodlots. How much longer before Wilmot itself joins in the game?

(My favourite discoveries: Nithburg! Three Bridges Road and the Woolwich Trail.)
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  #49  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2020, 4:23 PM
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Originally Posted by urbandreamer View Post
KW-Cambridge is just a suburb of the GTA. Like Mississauga/Brampton, it started with its own distinct downtowns/heritage but has evolved into just another bedroom community for Toronto area--especially south Kitchener/Cambridge. Similar things happening especially to Breslau, Wellesley, Conestogo, New Hamburg, Baden, Elmira, St Jacobs, Heidelburg and St Clements. I was driving around all these towns over the xmas break: Breslau is starting a massive new suburb along highway 7 eastward, Wellesley is about to announce another large development, New Hamburg looks like a hideous 905 suburb, St Jacobs is soon going to sprawl south to join Waterloo, Elmira has 2 large tracts undergoing development, while Heidelburg and St Clements appeal more to the large ex-urban estate crowd.
The farms between Waterloo and St Jacobs cannot be developed, can they?

Yes, all the towns and villages surrounding K-W seem to be adding new subdivisions. In Baden's case, in particular, it has really changed the character of the place, and not for the better. New Hamburg is a bit of an oddity, with most of the new development out across the highway from the (very nice) old part of town. I guess in that case being located on a flood plain has its advantages ....
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  #50  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2020, 4:47 PM
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The farms won't be developed in our lifetimes but eventually something will give. eg: I used to know farmers in Vaughan who eventually cashed out in the late '90s. Now it's an endless suburb where I used to hang out in the bush, farm machinery etc!
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  #51  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2020, 4:47 PM
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Originally Posted by megadude View Post
Was reading the Proposals thread and someone pointed out that Kelowna has suburbs. I've never thought of it that way. Though I've never been there.

So other than the obvious cities, which cities do locals consider to have suburbs or describe their town as a suburb? Like has anyone ever said I come from Innisfil, it's a suburb of Barrie? Or does someone from Grimsby (in the Hamilton CMA, though in Niagara Region) ever say I live in a suburb of Hamilton?

Which cities are on their way to being considered a regional hub that people will start to consider it having suburbs and not just towns within the CMA?

Hamilton pre-amalgamation I can picture people in Dundas, Flamboro or Ancaster occasionally telling someone from out of province that they live in a town called Ancaster, it's a suburb of Hamilton, and so on.

I've heard others in the Ontario section mention Windsor suburbs and even though I went to school there a long time ago, I never thought of those towns as suburbs, but rather towns in the same county or just nearby towns.

Speaking of counties, this is similar to a thread I started a couple of years ago where I asked if people say the live in such and such county as opposed to just saying the town or city they live in.

There are several populous and well known Ontario cities and I've talked to many people who come from nearby towns who, for example, say I'm from St. Thomas, just outside London.

Quebec I can't comment on much on due to the language thing, but how about Trois Rivieres?

Out east, there are small cities that are regional hubs or capitals. Do Saint John, Freddy, Moncton and Charlottetown have suburbs?

I assume Regina and Saskatoon have suburbs, but how much is the term suburb used there?
Windsor definitely has its own suburbs that are basically extensions of the city itself. LaSalle (32,000) Tecumseh (25,000) and the eastern half of Lakeshore (40,000) are all part of the contiguous urban area of the Windsor CMA, with no breaks of undeveloped land between them. All three are considered Windsor suburbs by everyone in the region. Only Amherstburg would be considered a stand alone town, even though it’s part of the CMA and most people there commute to the city for work.
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  #52  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2020, 9:47 PM
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As far as Saskatoon is concerned...

The city proper makes up probably about 80-90% of the CMA population (about 280k out of about 320k). The city proper includes a number of neighbourhoods that were originally outside of city limits but were annexed at some point in the past. The largest example of this is Sutherland, which was at first a small railway town that was annexed in the 1950s. Sutherland retains its own "Main Street" (Central Ave), and much of Saskatoon's "suburban" growth in the last 30 years has taken place essentially by expanding Sutherland to the east and northeast. The greater northeast district is known as University Heights, which includes Sutherland as a smaller neighbourhood.

As an interesting aside, when Sutherland was annexed the local government had to figure out how to deal with duplicated street names. For example, there was an "8th Street" both in Saskatoon and in Sutherland. The solution was to add 100 to the numbered streets in Sutherland, making its 8th Street, "108th Street".

Montgomery Place was originally outside of city limits, too. This more affluent west-side neighbourhood was originally built immediately post-WWII through government efforts to construct homes for returning veterans. The lots were very large and park-like, and many were over time subdivided to make way for additional houses. Montgomery was incorporated into Saskatoon in the 1950s as well, but remains rather secluded and cut off from the rest of the city by freeways and rail lines.

Mayfair was at first also its own settlement outside City limits, but was annexed pretty early (pre-WWI). The neighbourhood retains its own "Main Street" of 33rd Street West.

Going back further, Saskatoon itself was incorporated as a city through the amalgamation of 3 separate settlements. Saskatoon, on the east bank of the South Saskatchewan River, was the first European settlement in the area, dating to 1883 when John Lake established a temperance colony of tee-totaling Torontonians. When the railway came through about a decade later a new town was founded on the west bank, where the bank was lower making it easier to water locomotives. This town was incorporated as "Saskatoon", and the old settlement was re-named "Nutana". Riversdale was founded soon after and in 1906 the three settlements merged. Each of these three settlements retains its own "Main Street" to this day -- Broadway Ave for Nutana, 2nd Avenue for (downtown) Saskatoon, and 20th Street for Riversdale.

As for true suburbs, Warman and Martensville are each about 10 km north of the city, with populations each of about 10,000. They are growing rapidly -- Warman was the fastest growing municipality in Canada per capita between the 2011 and 2016 censuses.

Corman Park is the name of the Rural Municipality surrounding the city with about 10,000 residents, and contains a number of hamlets, such as Furdale and Grasswood, just south of the city. Corman Park contains a fair amount of very low density exurban residences, taking the form of acreages or country homes. Looking at Google Earth south of Saskatoon down to about Victor Road illustrates this area.

The Whitecap Dakota First Nation is about 30km south of the city but is often considered part of the greater area. It hosts the Dakota Dunes casino, and its students are served through an agreement with Saskatoon Public Schools.

Other than that, there are a number of small commuter towns surrounding Saskatoon, such as Dalmeny, Langham, Osler, Clavet, Aberdeen, Vanscoy, Delisle, and Dundurn.

However, for the most part, when people say "Suburbs" they are probably roughly referring to any part of the City outside Circle Drive, or Warman/Martensville.

Hope this provides some insight into my little prairie home city.

Last edited by phone; Jan 19, 2020 at 10:12 PM.
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  #53  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2020, 1:11 AM
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You mean there are cities that don't have suburbs? The only instance I can think of is a city that's really just a suburb of a central city.
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  #54  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2020, 3:14 AM
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The Abbostford-Vancouver relationship seems a bit different from the typical suburban and a bit more like KWC-Toronto or Hamilton-Toronto. Theyr're far enough apart that frequent commuting doesn't seem like an attractive option but close enough to still be part of the same overall "area". I get the impression that Moose Jaw has this sort of connection with Regina and places like Drummondville and Trois-Rivières with Montreal. Vernon-Kelowna-Penticton and Sydney-Glace Bay-New Waterford-Louisbourg (CBRM) are kind of like this as well. The US probably has a lot more good examples of this kind of thing
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  #55  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2020, 4:19 AM
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Hard to believe that one day Surrey will be bigger than Vancouver. That's like if Laval became bigger than Montreal. I wouldn't be able to handle that.
Maybe Vancouver should annex Burnaby.
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  #56  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2020, 4:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Maybe Vancouver should annex Burnaby.
Just combine “South Surrey” with White Rock.
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  #57  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2020, 5:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
Just combine “South Surrey” with White Rock.
Certainly, Metro Vancouver's municipal boundaries make zero sense, totally laughable, based on nonsensical historical vestiges.
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  #58  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2020, 6:45 AM
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Certainly, Metro Vancouver's municipal boundaries make zero sense, totally laughable, based on nonsensical historical vestiges.
Does it really matter though? They can be kind of annoying from an OCD perspective but governance-wise it seems to work. Don't know if either of inter-municipal fighting or intra-municipal fighting like they have in the big Prairie cities is better than the other.
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  #59  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2020, 7:19 AM
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One could argue that Ingersoll (12 000), Norwich, Innerkip, Tavistock, Drumbo, and Zorra (each around 1000 or less?) are suburbs of Woodstock, Ontario (45 000).
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  #60  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2020, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Chadillaccc View Post
One could argue that Ingersoll (12 000), Norwich, Innerkip, Tavistock, Drumbo, and Zorra (each around 1000 or less?) are suburbs of Woodstock, Ontario (45 000).
Not if you live there

Just being a small town near a larger town doesn't make a town a suburb.
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