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  #301  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2007, 4:58 PM
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Originally Posted by honte View Post
I've heard people say that about Trump, but frankly, I don't understand that argument. In fact, I understand that Trump was also supposed to be steel, but they switched simply because the price of steel went up beyond their projections. However, I am certainly not an authority on high-rise engineering, so any corrections are welcome.

There is usually an equation that you have to balance between the price of steel and the added labor / time required to erect a concrete frame.

If Waterview were to be a steel frame, it almost certainly still would have had a composite deck and concrete core for lateral stability, just as the current proposal has. But I think it would have been perfectly possible in steel. There may have been bracing in undesirable places, however, or large members associated with moment frames.

Sam, the proposal I am referring to was the 80-story that was planned on Monroe just off Michigan.
The idea is, the taller you build the more space you must devote to structural components. You also need to make the building wider for a tower of that height, so they used concrete which requires less space, and can produce a thinner building at that same height.
     
     
  #302  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2007, 7:32 PM
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^ What concrete members would "require less space"? You can typically get thinner floorplates, but otherwise, concrete members are much larger and spans are tighter than steel.
     
     
  #303  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2007, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honte View Post
I've heard people say that about Trump, but frankly, I don't understand that argument. In fact, I understand that Trump was also supposed to be steel, but they switched simply because the price of steel went up beyond their projections. However, I am certainly not an authority on high-rise engineering, so any corrections are welcome.
it was a couple of years ago at a lecture adrian smith gave at the AIC about trump tower and other super-talls he's worked on (jin mao, burj dubai). he said that they went with concrete instead of steel on trump because the tower was so narrow that it would sway to much for residents' comfort if they went with steel. apparently the inherent weight/mass of a concrete structure better resists wind sway in narrow suppertalls, thus negating the cost of an expansive tuned mass dampering system to counteract the building sway that would have occured had they gone with a steel structure.

as for waterview, it's even skinnier than trump. i'm sure that they could have done this with steel, but it probably would have meant an expensive tuned mass damper at the top of the structure. in fact, waterview is SO narrow that i'm surprised it won't need one even with the concrete structure they're employing.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Apr 14, 2007 at 10:16 PM.
     
     
  #304  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2007, 10:40 PM
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^ Thanks Steely. That makes a lot more sense to me, as opposed to saying "it isn't possible."

There are other ways to brace a concrete building too, such as increasing the number of shear walls or even using diagonal bracing similar to steel braced frames. I've been seeing a surprising number of concrete trusses in Chicago lately - usually a no-no due to tension in the members.
     
     
  #305  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2007, 10:46 PM
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I've been seeing a surprising number of concrete trusses in Chicago lately - usually a no-no due to tension in the members.
yeah, but they shove so much steel rebar into those things that simply calling them "concrete trusses" doesn't exactly tell the whole story.
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  #306  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2007, 11:07 PM
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^ Yes, of course. You can't rely on the concrete at all in tension. But it's still a fundamentally RC system.

OK, back to Waterview. Thanks for the slight detour.
     
     
  #307  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2007, 3:54 AM
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Waterview is an interesting bird though...

I'm probably just making this up, but it seems to me that Waterview is the tallest building ever built with a party wall on a side. Most if not all supertalls up to this point have taken up their own block or had an alley or plaza around them. Waterview uniquely shares a wall with the LaSalle-Wacker Bldg. next door. Negating sway, I imagine, is a huge concern given the age of LaSalle-Wacker.
     
     
  #308  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2007, 5:33 AM
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^That's an interesting thought. Do we have a way of finding this out for sure?
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  #309  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2007, 12:56 PM
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Party wall? Huh?
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  #310  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2007, 4:57 AM
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A party wall, architecturally speaking, is a shared wall between two buildings. It is quite common in older skyscrapers, and it is a fact of life in NYC. Usually, each building will create their own wall of common brick, creating a wall that is two bricks thick. Although this tradition persists in some shorter skyscrapers like Legacy and Heritage, Waterview is an uncommonly tall example.

Wikipedia Party Wall
     
     
  #311  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2007, 10:08 AM
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Typically, the technical definition of a party wall is a shared wall using the same foundation. This would be the case, for example, with the Gage Group in downtown Chicago - hence the huge settlement on the northernmost building, where they screwed up a bit. This building will come up (nearly) to the neighboring building, but I don't think it technically will qualify as a party wall. It should have its own outside envelope on that side, and certainly will be self-supporting.

I think they'd be crazy not to allow a few inches there for lateral movement. That would address the concerns you bring up, which are good ones.
     
     
  #312  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2007, 2:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
A party wall, architecturally speaking, is a shared wall between two buildings. It is quite common in older skyscrapers, and it is a fact of life in NYC. Usually, each building will create their own wall of common brick, creating a wall that is two bricks thick. Although this tradition persists in some shorter skyscrapers like Legacy and Heritage, Waterview is an uncommonly tall example.

Wikipedia Party Wall

Yeah, I know what a party wall is. The West wall is not a party wall. It has it's own foundation and has nothing else in common with it's neighbor other than proximity. I don't call that a party wall.
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  #313  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2007, 4:05 PM
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I don't think this will really affect whether or not Waterview will be built, but Fremont looks like its going under:

"In other corporate news, Fremont General Corp. said it is planning to sell its residential real estate business and about $2.9 billion in subprime residential mortgages at a loss. The moves will effectively shut down the company, which rose $1.73, or 25 percent, to $8.78."

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070416/wall_street.html?.v=24
     
     
  #314  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2007, 6:05 PM
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^^ That's why smart developers try not to divulge who they are negotiating their financing with. This is not the best news to hear unfortunately. Doesn't mean Fremont is out, but this is a pretty big distraction for Fremont and Teng.
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  #315  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2007, 6:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honte View Post
Typically, the technical definition of a party wall is a shared wall using the same foundation. This would be the case, for example, with the Gage Group in downtown Chicago - hence the huge settlement on the northernmost building, where they screwed up a bit. This building will come up (nearly) to the neighboring building, but I don't think it technically will qualify as a party wall. It should have its own outside envelope on that side, and certainly will be self-supporting.

I think they'd be crazy not to allow a few inches there for lateral movement. That would address the concerns you bring up, which are good ones.
If you look at many of the newer buildings that have abutting walls, you will likely see a control joint where it appears to be caulked.

Look at where façades are next to each other at Heritage at Millennium Park; You will see what I mean.
     
     
  #316  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2007, 6:25 PM
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What makes you think that? A recent proposal for Chicago that was scuttled was 11.5:1 slenderness and all steel. It had composite columns in some places, but otherwise, nothing too unusual related to the height of the structure.
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Originally Posted by SamInTheLoop View Post
Ok - sorry, not to get off-topic but you've really picqued my curiosity: what proposal was that??
7 South Dearborn ???
     
     
  #317  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2007, 8:40 PM
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I wouldnt worry about Fremont. From a different story...
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070416/fremo...sale.html?.v=1

If Fremont General succeeds in the sale, the company's commercial real estate business would remain. That segment, which as recently as last month Fremont General said was profitable, lends money to developers to build or renovate condominiums, hotels and retail outlets. The segment's $6.42 billion commercial loan portfolio has its highest concentrations in California, New York and Florida.
     
     
  #318  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2007, 3:01 AM
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Visually, the west wall seems to be a party wall. I haven't seen anything to the contrary, but I'll admit that it's unlikely given current construction practices.

That still doesn't change the fact that the two buildings will move in different ways in VERY close proximity. Hopefully the Waterview team has anticipated this.
     
     
  #319  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2007, 2:16 AM
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saw three cement trucks today on-site all POURING at the same time! by gosh i think they are finally making some noticeable progress!!!! YEAH!!!!!!!! Wow, i never thought trump would be up to about the 35th or 40th floor before this one started to rise!
     
     
  #320  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2007, 3:40 AM
DePaul Bunyan DePaul Bunyan is offline
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saw three cement trucks today on-site all POURING at the same time! by gosh i think they are finally making some noticeable progress!!!! YEAH!!!!!!!! Wow, i never thought trump would be up to about the 35th or 40th floor before this one started to rise!
Great news. I would expect this one to start rising soon and at a fairly decent clip. Anyone want to take bets on which floor they'll be on when they finally secure financing?
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