DENVER | Transportation Thread

[DenverInfill]

Originally Posted by LooksLikeForever

Absolutely agreed, and fair points all around. To your point, I remember last year reading about efforts to start service between Denver and Ethiopia. In fact, there were several news articles at the time such as: https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/new...le-few-months/

Since early 2023, I haven't been able to find any update. I wonder if this initiative died on the vine, or if there is still any activity going on behind the scenes.

Last I heard it was still in the works but again, it has taken/will take years to get this to happen, so no news since a year ago shouldn't be a surprise. I believe it took a decade to get the Denver - Tokyo nonstop to reality.

According to a recent article about the new nonstop to Dublin that will launch in the spring, Aer Lingus evaluated the Denver route for six years before deciding to go for it, and that was probably after Denver had pitched the idea to them for a few years.

FYI, here's the latest international nonstop destinations list from DEN (current and soon-to-launch):

• Tokyo-Narita, Japan (NRT)
• Calgary, Canada (YYC)
• Edmonton, Canada (YEG)
• Montreal, Canada (YUL)
• Toronto, Canada (YYZ)
• Vancouver, Canada (YVR)
• Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands (GCM)
• Montego Bay, Jamaica (MBJ)
• Nassau, Bahamas (NAS)
• Belize City, Belize (BZE)
• Liberia, Costa Rica (LIR)
• Panama City, Panama (PTY)
• Roatan, Honduras (RTB)
• San Jose, Costa Rica (SJO)
• Dublin, Ireland (DUB)
• London-Heathrow, United Kingdom (LHR)
• Frankfurt, Germany (FRA)
• Munich, Germany (MUC)
• Paris, France (CDG)
• Reykjavik, Iceland (KEF)
• Zurich, Switzerland (ZRH)
• Cancun, Mexico (CUN)
• Cozumel, Mexico (CZM)
• Chihuahua, Mexico (CUU)
• Guadalajara, Mexico (GDL)
• Mexico City, Mexico (MEX)
• Monterrey, Mexico (MTY)
• Puerto Vallarta, Mexico (PVR)
• San Jose del Cabo, Mexico (SJD)

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by mishko27

I understand this is mostly domestic traffic by a great margin, but can we get more international flights? Not a single ME carrier is a joke, the fact that all we have is one flight to Tokyo and no other flights to Asia is silly. European coverage is too sparse as well (AMS? VIE? CPH?).

In any case, I did not believe we will cross the 70m mark this quickly, and yet here we are. Good for you DEN.

With respect to only UAL:

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/20/why-...r-airport.html

The midcontinent airport has become United’s busiest hub. It recently invested nearly $1 billion in Denver to add more gates, flights and destinations, and opened the largest lounge in its network.

“About 60% of our customers are connecting from other places. Forty percent of our customers are local Denver, and it’s a fast growing city,” said Jonna McGrath, vice president of Denver Airport operations for United Airlines. “We want to grow before 2030 to about 650 flights a day.”

------------------------------

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

I'm quite impressed with how successful Denver has been in this recently, considering how far we are from the coasts and how many bigger markets Denver competes against.

The number of international flights out of DEN is very impressive.

PHX would love to have some of those routes. Sky Harbor has flights to London and Frankfurt but otherwise lots of flights to Mexico and Canada. Interestingly, I've had people from Toronto tell me it's cheaper to fly from Toronto to Phoenix than Vancouver BC.

The problem down here is that Phoenix is a short hop to LAX and two hops to DFW both which have lots of international flights. DFW is the city that has really grown internationally right along with their growth of population and HQ's for lots of companies.

For being in Flyover country and it's size DEN's international service is very impressive.

[Justanothermember]

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

Last I heard it was still in the works but again, it has taken/will take years to get this to happen, so no news since a year ago shouldn't be a surprise. I believe it took a decade to get the Denver - Tokyo nonstop to reality.

According to a recent article about the new nonstop to Dublin that will launch in the spring, Aer Lingus evaluated the Denver route for six years before deciding to go for it, and that was probably after Denver had pitched the idea to them for a few years.

FYI, here's the latest international nonstop destinations list from DEN (current and soon-to-launch):

• Tokyo-Narita, Japan (NRT)
• Calgary, Canada (YYC)
• Edmonton, Canada (YEG)
• Montreal, Canada (YUL)
• Toronto, Canada (YYZ)
• Vancouver, Canada (YVR)
• Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands (GCM)
• Montego Bay, Jamaica (MBJ)
• Nassau, Bahamas (NAS)
• Belize City, Belize (BZE)
• Liberia, Costa Rica (LIR)
• Panama City, Panama (PTY)
• Roatan, Honduras (RTB)
• San Jose, Costa Rica (SJO)
• Dublin, Ireland (DUB)
• London-Heathrow, United Kingdom (LHR)
• Frankfurt, Germany (FRA)
• Munich, Germany (MUC)
• Paris, France (CDG)
• Reykjavik, Iceland (KEF)
• Zurich, Switzerland (ZRH)
• Cancun, Mexico (CUN)
• Cozumel, Mexico (CZM)
• Chihuahua, Mexico (CUU)
• Guadalajara, Mexico (GDL)
• Mexico City, Mexico (MEX)
• Monterrey, Mexico (MTY)
• Puerto Vallarta, Mexico (PVR)
• San Jose del Cabo, Mexico (SJD)

You need to add Winnipeg, Canada (YWG) to this list.

[N830MH]

I know they don’t have any nonstop flights to Tel Aviv, Dubai, AUH, Kingston, IST, HKG, BKK, SIN, AMM, CAI, Madrid, Doha, Athens, Lisbon, Osaka, Nagoya, PPT, Brisbane, Melbourne, Sydney, Lima, and Santiago, Chile.

[N830MH]

Denver International Airport will receive another $26 million in a grant from the U.S. Department of Transportation to replace its outdated baggage handling system

https://kdvr.com/news/local/another-...edium=referral

[Paniolo Man]

FRA's Long Distance Reccomendations would create quite a hub of Denver:

Denver to Houston, via Trinidad, Amarillo, and Dallas/Fort Worth.

Los Angeles to Denver, via Barstow, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, and Cheyenne.

Dallas/Fort Worth to New York, via Oklahoma City, Tulsa, St. Louis, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Columbus, and Pittsburgh.

Seattle to Denver, via Portland, Boise, Pocatello, Salt Lake City, and Grand Junction.

Denver to Minneapolis/St. Paul, via Cheyenne, Pierre, and Sioux Falls.

[TakeFive]

This is rather interesting and fun

The 10 Most Bikeable Cities in the U.S., Ranked
February 8, 2024 by Jamie Forbes

Denver (read metro) just edged out Seattle for 5th place. Apparently the difference was it's easier to bike in mountain terrain than in Seattle's lakes.

5. Denver, CO

Denver, the Mile High City, is the fifth-most bikeable city in the nation. Life at 5,280 feet may seem daunting, but once you get used to the elevation, you’ll love cycling through the city against a backdrop of the towering Rocky Mountains.

As one of just 11 cities to achieve a LEED Platinum Certification, it’s no surprise that Denver is an exceptionally bikeable city. 196 miles of greenways, trails, and bike lanes connect the mountainous metropolis, with 270 more on the way, making for easy commuting and recreation. Cherry Creek and the South Platte River Trail are popular options, and the new regional bike sharing program helps increase accessibility.

Mountain biking is particularly popular in Denver due to the abundance of recreation and rugged trails less than an hour from town. The Evergreen Mountain Loop, for example, is a popular spot, as is Waterton Canyon and the Mount Carbon Loop.

The Top Ten Cities

1. Minneapolis, MN
2. Portland, OR
3. San Francisco, CA
4. Chicago, IL
5. Denver, CO
   
6. Seattle, WA
7. Long Beach, CA
8. Washington, D.C.
9. Boston, MA
10. New York, NY

[TakeFive]

Denver RTD is So Lucky

I happen to run across an update to Seattle's Sound Transit in Axios Seattle.

: Since 2008, Seattle-area voters have approved more than $65 billion to grow the region's light rail system. But some projects are behind schedule, making it hard to track what's next.

The projects on deck are expected to expand the local light rail system from 26 miles to about 116 miles by 2041

The Total Per Mile cost would be $560 million based on these cost figures.

I updated/double checked RTD rail costs

A) "FasTracks, RTD has completed 78 miles and spent $5.6 billion." (per the Denver Post)
B) The 2.3-mile Southeast Rail Line Extension cost $233.1 million. (pricey)
C) Added together both cost $5.833 billion for 80.3 miles.
D) The Per Mile cost was $72.64 million per mile.

Note: RTD now has a total of 113 miles of rail including previously built lines. Add an additional $1 billion of cost for those and the whole dang 113 miles cost ~ $60 million per mile. Also note that FasTracks included the Flatiron Flyer which I didn't bother to cost out.

Seattle is lucky too

You get what you pay for and Sound Transit is a high quality system. Also they've had to absorb post pandemic inflation costs for some projects under construction as well as projects that hadn't yet started.

Consider Austin's Project Connect

They're in the middle of the NEPA process and the latest is that their 9.8 miles of light rail will cost in the neighborhood of $5 billion or $510 per mile. Their project sounds closer to Denver quality then Seattle quality.

[mhays]

There's certainly a cost difference, but dollars from 2010 (for example) are very different from dollars in 2030.

[TakeFive]

No Doubt

Originally Posted by mhays

There's certainly a cost difference, but dollars from 2010 (for example) are very different from dollars in 2030.

And yes this is important since incomes and tax revenues have also risen.

But to hear the RTD crowd complain over the burden of paying off bonds it's a good thing that they didn't have to spend any more than they did.

Side topic:

In 2016 Phoenix Metro rail added a ~ 3-mile extension on the north end of the segment that runs north-south. It's on the east side of I-17. For more than a decade PHX has been offering incentives to developers to redevelop Metro-Center Mall which was state of the art - back in 1975. It's on the west side of I-17 and developers wanted a light rail extension over I-17 to the Mall. End of January they started service on a 1.6 mile extension/bridge for $401 million - pricey. Driving north-south along the I-17 freeway the sides of the bridge have a continuous line of LED light that changes colors. It's the coolest thing I've ever seen along a freeway.

I don't normally Uber in that area but I have already picked up two Pax at the station where the new extension turns to go west and provided last mile service.

Back to Denver and Seattle

Both cities benefit from dedicated tax revenue for building and operating their systems. Many of the legacy systems relied heavily on farebox revenue and are running scared over how to support their system when the American Recovery money runs out end of 2024, given their ridership is still depressed. Boston is currently under FTA supervision needing to cure safety hazards. Recent report says they're making progress.

RTD has also been fortunate to use iija $'s to cure deferred maintenance on the original ~ 35 miles of light rail.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

With respect to only UAL:

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/20/why-...r-airport.html


------------------------------


The number of international flights out of DEN is very impressive.

PHX would love to have some of those routes. Sky Harbor has flights to London and Frankfurt but otherwise lots of flights to Mexico and Canada. Interestingly, I've had people from Toronto tell me it's cheaper to fly from Toronto to Phoenix than Vancouver BC.

The problem down here is that Phoenix is a short hop to LAX and two hops to DFW both which have lots of international flights. DFW is the city that has really grown internationally right along with their growth of population and HQ's for lots of companies.

For being in Flyover country and it's size DEN's international service is very impressive.

Why do you consider being close to LAX a problem? I consider that a nice benefit to have great service to APAC and the Middle East so close. If I’m traveling to LA I avoid LAX, I consider it only for international travel.

PHX is adding Paris direct later this year and a bunch of chatter on Asia given the TSMC presence/demand. They’re currently chartering service to Asia for the company.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by locolife

If I’m traveling to LA I avoid LAX, I consider it only for international travel.

Well, international flights was the topic.

Originally Posted by locolife

PHX is adding Paris direct later this year and a bunch of chatter on Asia given the TSMC presence/demand. They’re currently chartering service to Asia for the company.

Well said!

It's not just TSMC; Sunlit Chemical, a leading semiconductor supplier based in Taiwan, has begun construction on a plant near the Deer Valley Airport in north Phoenix. There will be other Taiwanese companies setting up shop in PHX. Also Tempe-based Amkor said it will build a new $2 billion facility to package and test chips produced for Apple Inc. at the nearby Taiwan Semiconductor complex.

Speaking of the Deer Valley Airport I've picked up several Asian guys learning to fly, not necessarily connected to TSMC. (I do rideshare)

[TakeFive]

New Amtrak route proposed between Seattle and Denver

https://www.theurbanist.org/2024/02/...thwest-routes/

The Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) has unveiled its preferred Amtrak long-distance expansion plan. The Pacific Northwest could see two new routes under the preferred plan... Both routes would provide daily service from Seattle with one running to Denver and another running to Chicago on a modified alignment from Amtrak’s Empire Builder.

The Seattle-Denver route would essentially restore much of the Amtrak Pioneer service that operated between 1977 and 1997. The preferred route would have major stops in Portland, Boise, Pocatello, Ogden, Salt Lake City, and Grand Junction on a 1,671 mile corridor. Travel time is estimated to be around 40 hours end to end and the Pioneer would serve five metropolitan statistical areas (with about 1.28 million residents) without any Amtrak service.

Color me skeptical but it never hurts to dream and plan; who can predict the future?

[Cirrus]

"Find some thousand-mile routes from 50 years ago" wouldn't have been my first choice for planning Amtrak expansions. But if that's what the legislation requires

My first choice, recognizing that intra-state routes will be led by the states, would've been to look for corridors that:

1. Crossed state lines
2. Are <300 miles long
3. Connect major cities on either end with several small cities between

I'd be tempted to just bust out a map of megaregions and try to connect any adjacent city pairs inside a single megaregion, except experience shows you need rural areas to support the plans.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

"Find some thousand-mile routes from 50 years ago" wouldn't have been my first choice for planning Amtrak expansions. But if that's what the legislation requires

My first choice, recognizing that intra-state routes will be led by the states, would've been to look for corridors that:

1. Crossed state lines
2. Are <300 miles long
3. Connect major cities on either end with several small cities between

I'd be tempted to just bust out a map of megaregions and try to connect any adjacent city pairs inside a single megaregion, except experience shows you need rural areas to support the plans.

I know you're actually in NoVA -- but Michael Schaffer/Politico Mag has a quite good piece about D.C. including some discussion about transit.
.

[Cirrus]

I live in DC. I work in Nova, about 1 mile from the DC border. I often write about both.

Everyone recognizes the days of office ghettos being cash cows are probably over. And everyone also recognizes that residential demand remains through the roof. That's a recipe for budget corrections and rethinking; it merits serious consideration, openness to new ideas, and shifts in plans. But it's not remotely similar to the city-emptying 80s.

[TakeFive]

Nicely written article!

Originally Posted by Cirrus

I live in DC. I work in Nova, about 1 mile from the DC border. I often write about both.

Everyone recognizes the days of office ghettos being cash cows are probably over. And everyone also recognizes that residential demand remains through the roof. That's a recipe for budget corrections and rethinking; it merits serious consideration, openness to new ideas, and shifts in plans. But it's not remotely similar to the city-emptying 80s.

Nothing like a little Amazon magic (and Boeing) and I'm sure the masterplan was key to their decisions.

I picked this as the highlight and good advice for Denver too.

But Crystal City is undoubtedly in a better place today than it would’ve been had leaders stayed the old course and simply hoped to refill the old offices with replacement commuters. Its eggs aren’t all in the office basket anymore. Leaders still wish those offices were fuller and their taxes rolling in faster, but nobody worries Crystal City will become a ghost town anymore. It’s a diverse neighborhood now, not just a glorified office park.

I wouldn't disagree with the "clickbait" but as often the case the headline is only lightly related to the article which I thought on the positive side but also a balanced view.

[LooksLikeForever]

https://x.com/cprwarner/status/1775271641419031018?s=20

Denver Airport is expected to announce tomorrow the longest non-stop flight yet, and a new airline. Current guesses are Turkish Airlines to Istanbul and Ethiopian Airlines to Addis Ababa.

[mishko27]

In addition to Istanbul, which is starting at just 3 rotations a week, we are now getting Paris with Air France year round, rather than just in the summer.