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  #181  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2014, 4:36 PM
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might also want to check out these guys - they have some routes on the webiste:

https://www.facebook.com/denverstreetcarco

http://www.denverstreetcar.com/
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  #182  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2014, 9:23 PM
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Originally Posted by bcp View Post
might also want to check out these guys - they have some routes on the webiste:

https://www.facebook.com/denverstreetcarco

http://www.denverstreetcar.com/
Looks more like a pipe dream system for serving all the fun hipstery neighborhoods rather than providing functional transit for the corridors that need it most.
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  #183  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2014, 11:54 PM
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i'm not sure of your point...most neigbhorhoods around denver are hip and trendy. Also, this has a good amount of overlap with other plans, including cirrus' plan...colfax, larimer, broadway, speer, 38th...
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  #184  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2014, 6:46 AM
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Okay, here's what I think about it then:

>The Cherry Creek line is fine. I don't know whether you could get trains running both ways down one-way 6th Avenue, and if what Ken's conclusions about cost of curved tracks on Speer are true, I don't see how they also wouldn't apply for Cherry Creek Drive. I think Cirrus' solution for Cherry Creek is probably better, sure, but I don't dispute that Cherry Creek merits a streetcar.
>In RTD's initial Colfax study last year, it concluded that any solution to Colfax that involves a couplet or forcing either one or both lanes off of Colfax onto 13th, 16th, or 17th greatly reduces potential ridership by a considerable margin. Yes, this source is RTD, and they're not exactly an authority on thinking big, but a year ago, their recommendation was a streetcar on Colfax and nothing else.
>Also, extending a streetcar west beyond Auraria seems like a duplication of the W line, which already has stations not too far from one another. I understand this is somewhat hypocritical in my shunning of a couplet on 17th, but we already built rail for the West Colfax corridor regardless of whether putting it there was a good decision. I think extending the Colfax line east beyond Colorado is a higher priority than duplicating the W line.
>The Wash Park line is all wrong. The fact that it's made to serve cutesy streets like South Pearl and Gaylord (seriously?? Gaylord??) is an obvious sign that whoever made this plan probably just thought that having a streetcar pass by "would look real nice" from the patio of the Tavern, but that's not a functional piece of transportation. This line also appears to not even link up to the I-25 and Broadway station but only seems to skirt somewhat close to the non-pedestrian friendly highway overpass wasteland several hundred feed north of it. Why would you build a streetcar that doesn't connect to the transfer station for five other lines?
>I think we concluded in our plan that the Highlands is not enough of a population base to warrant a streetcar line, but even if you do think NW Denver could use a streetcar, then for God's sake, put it on Federal, the street that has the busiest bus route in that area, rather than just crossing it. I'm also not convinced that a couplet on 32nd and 38th Aves would work, other than to, again, put a pretty choo-choo on a pretty street.
>A Larimer streetcar is interesting, but anyone who has paid attention to the Central Corridor project knows that once it is built, a streetcar linking Civic Center and 38th and Blake via Broadway is a more likely way to connect NE/SW traffic (and a solution to train gridlock in the downtown loop).
>There aren't currently any stations at 20th and Downing or 25th and Downing, as the map shows, but there are stations at 20th and Welton and 25th and Welton. Another sign that whoever made this project didn't think all too hard about making a real transit system, or perhaps that was tertiary to a lot of other things.
>That logo is horrendous. It takes every cliché from post-hipster business school 101, from the circle (which is imperfect), to the script type and the "let's make this look old when it really is the opposite of old" chic. I can't take that seriously. There's way too much of that faux-post-hipster style in Denver as it is.
>There is no name on this website. If you're serious about something, then put your name on it.

Last edited by CharlesCO; Sep 2, 2014 at 7:00 AM.
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  #185  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2014, 7:31 PM
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you mad bro? let's not get bogged down in how hipstery the logo is...

i completely agree with you on west colfax portion...the rest is debatable, imperfect, and certainly not locked in stone in this fantasy of ours.

my point is that there are other factions of people with the same pursuit in mind...the more on board and unified, the better. they should be welcomed in the fold (who knows, they might see it the other way around). i've gone ahead and emailed them.
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  #186  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2014, 8:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcp View Post
you mad bro? let's not get bogged down in how hipstery the logo is...

i completely agree with you on west colfax portion...the rest is debatable, imperfect, and certainly not locked in stone in this fantasy of ours.

my point is that there are other factions of people with the same pursuit in mind...the more on board and unified, the better. they should be welcomed in the fold (who knows, they might see it the other way around). i've gone ahead and emailed them.
I admire there pluck, but I also think that a lot of their routes border on the asinine. Nothing should cut through Wash Park or the Highlands as the ridership isn't there. If the B-Cycle stations, bicycle lanes, and da' bus aren't getting gigantic ridership, what makes people think that the streetcar will? We need to be focusing on taking the heavily traveled routes in Denver and improving them, once that occurs we can look at adding additional routes should demand warrant it. But putting a streetcar route through Wash Park or the Highlands, where's there zero potential for densification, is not a good strategy and it ultimately will end up disillusioning people when you finally have to tell them that a streetcar is not going to be streaming down South Gaylord Street.

While I'm sure that this is meant to get people talking about, and excited for, transit expansion in Denver it's an overzealous vision with many fatal flaws. That it basically only goes where the white people are and where transit usage is lower is probably unintentional, but pretty damn discriminatory when you think about it. I guess we want to keep the non-white in NW and SE Denver where they belong, eh?

Coalition building for transit is a must, and these guys should be brought into the fold, but this proposal is one that needs a bit of work.
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  #187  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2014, 8:48 PM
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I like the revisions to Draft 2 and think that Bunt's idea to run streetcar down 15th in a bi-directional setup is a good one. If we do maintain the couplet going through downtown and speed isn't a concern, why not push the line from 19th to 20th and try to increase the accessibility of the streetcar into Arapahoe Square and Ballpark?
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  #188  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2014, 9:21 PM
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^ 19th / 20th is a much better couplet...nice to have everybody within 2 blocks of transit from 16th to 22nd that way.

wong, missing the point...just trying to expand the idea...that said, i find it a bit ridiculous to bring race into this (especially given denver's predominant white citizenry). that said, i'll take the bait and evaluate whether or not it "basically goes where the white people are"...I'll defend the DSC concept, for no reason except for keeping logic in the discussion:

- west colfax line: serves a diverse, poor populace
- east colfax: serves our most diverse corridor
- 38th: serves sunnyside and large hispanic comunity
- broadway: serves la alma / lincoln park and income diversity along broadway
- welton is already very well served, and being extended, for the black community

really we need to focus where car trips happen, mixed-uses exist, where density exists, and where zoning supports density / main streets. race-baiting gets us nowhere.

that said...here is what I heard back from DSC:

"Thanks for your submission! Someone else has recently pointed us to that site as well. Lots of good ideas on there and of course I would love join forces down the line. However, right now, our mission is to get Streetcar and it's benefits into the mainstream and get all Denverites thinking and talking about streetcar. The skyscraper page is great but is a bit too wonky for our goals right now. We are less interested in debating the virtues of one route versus another route, and the idiosyncrasies of funding such a massive project, but rather want to spread the word and help citizens visualize what streetcar can do for our City. Thanks for your support and we hope to continue the conversation!"


from steven c. - PM me if you want his email to discuss.


bold added because it's funny...find it a bit odd that funding is viewed as an idiosyncrasy...rather than integral to the entire process. in short, IMHO, sounds like they are working to reduce the NIMBY voices and ease the transition into more rolling stock....just a guess.
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  #189  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2014, 4:06 AM
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Sure, it's great to see more pro-transit people active in the area, and we should definitely include them if we're still trying to get our own proposal going, but anyone can get a copy of Illustrator and a Squarespace account while still being unable to understand the so-called idiosyncrasies of how to build a proposal that might one day be viable.

And as long as they're not interested in discussing how to finance something like this, then great— let's start from scratch and imagine a subway. Wouldn't it be so totally deck if Denver had a subway? Let's help spread the word and to help citizens visualize what a subway can do for our City!!! Let's not worry about getting wonky corridor predictions and revenue sources get in our way— let's just break out a map and start drawing lines through all the nice neighborhoods. Or better yet, let's start building a monorail project for Denver, because as the people of Seattle ten years ago and the movie "Grassroots" can tell you, choosing a mode of transit and working backward in trying to figure out how it's going to serve a city while having some sweeping, feel-good grassroots movement surround it isn't always the best way of political transit activism.
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