[St. John's] Transport development (Highways, Airport, and Public Transit)

[mrjanejacobs]

Originally Posted by Copes

Am I right when I read your plan that the purple lane (for cars) is a single lane for cars, making Water Streeet one-way?

haha yes...

[Copes]

If such an initiative were undertaken, I definitely think that consolodating costs would be the play, simply to cut down on the overall investment. The negative side would be that to the average citizen, it would all appear as one bill... and a hefty bill at that.

[PoscStudent]

Originally Posted by mrjanejacobs

But in terms of consolidating costs, it would cost a lot more to not do them at one time. You can save bucket loads if you consolidate projects. Calgary is a great example, they consolidated costs while building the C-train and their LRT system - they synched all construction with construction of retrofitting roads, building new roads and replacing sewer lines. Effectively, they had one of the leanest public transit systems, in terms of cost effectiveness, in the world.

Well making the roads one way, putting in bike lanes, and changing parking is only a matter of panting different lines on the roads.

[SignalHillHiker]

The only real concern I have is one Jeddy and I happened to discuss yesterday evening.

I don't think bike lanes on Water Street will fly. I'm not against bike lanes at all... but I just don't believe it's the best use of what is incredibly valuable street real estate on our main drag. I also don't think they'll be used.

I'd move the bike lanes to Harbour Drive. And use the extra space to allow diagonal parking all along one side of Water.

[Copes]

I'd personally prefer wider sidewalks if we're going to scrap bike lines. Tables outside of restaurants, urban art, benches, plants, etc. would make the whole area much more walkable.

[mrjanejacobs]

As far as I'm concerned, the main benefit of redeveloping Water Street is to accommodate transit, first and foremost. Be it trams or buses with their own right-of-ways. Effectively, this removes the need for parking on Water Street as the transit brings you to parking centres in the east and west.

Transit infrastructure will be heavily covered by the Feds, and by the Province if the pressures are there from Council, keep in mind. If it's just a street redevelopment without transit, the funding will be coming mostly from Council.

It will be expensive. Of course. But again, it's an investment, and a sustainable one at that. Council should not be held hostage to frugal citizens fear of spending money.

[mrjanejacobs]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

The only real concern I have is one Jeddy and I happened to discuss yesterday evening.

I don't think bike lanes on Water Street will fly. I'm not against bike lanes at all... but I just don't believe it's the best use of what is incredibly valuable street real estate on our main drag. I also don't think they'll be used.

I'd move the bike lanes to Harbour Drive. And use the extra space to allow diagonal parking all along one side of Water.

Straight up - it's attitudes like that which prevent cycling from catching on (generally speaking). People will not consider cycling until there are bike lanes. Conversely, if we maintain the defeatist attitude that 'people don't cycle, therefore, we shouldn't spend money on it', then people definitely will not begin cycling.

Council has to take the first step. The Montreal City Hall took the first step, and within 10 years, the City suddenly became flooded with commuting cyclists.

Honestly (I don't know if you are a biker or not), but bike lanes on Harbour Drive would flop. I cycle to work and school and I would never go to Harbour Drive to use the bike lane. In SJ, I would probably just go on the sidewalk on Water Street, admittedly. People aren't going to go out of their way to use a bike lane. As mentioned before, harbour drive is also more exposed to the weather (wind, rain, fog) and has higher speeds. Why should cyclists have to go to Harbour Drive (when cyclists take up literally 1/4 the space of Water Street) yet cars aren't expected to? AND not to mention, cars have every other road in the City designated already, exclusively for them.

It's about PRIORITIZING cycling. The same is true for transit. Until they are a priority, no one will consider making the switch.

Diagonal parking would be retrogressing, in my opinion. It's prioritizing the car. We can talk all we want about how we don't like urban sprawl beyond Empire, or how we don't like Power Centres or Sub-Divisions (they are all products of the privately owned automobile). How will we ever be able to combat those urban-quandaries if we cannot make room for transit and cyclists on one, single road?

[jeddy1989]

why don't you run for mayor and solve all of our woes?

[mrjanejacobs]

Originally Posted by jeddy1989

why don't you run for mayor and solve all of our woes?

I probably will some day, despite your needlessly satirical comment, haha.

And what does a comment like that have to accomplish? haha

I am not going pretend that I agree with other's comments, if I don't.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by mrjanejacobs

Straight up - it's attitudes like that which prevent cycling from catching on (generally speaking). People will not consider cycling until there are bike lanes. Conversely, if we maintain the defeatist attitude that 'people don't cycle, therefore, we shouldn't spend money on it', then people definitely will not begin cycling.

Council has to take the first step. The Montreal City Hall took the first step, and within 10 years, the City suddenly became flooded with commuting cyclists.

Honestly (I don't know if you are a biker or not), but bike lanes on Harbour Drive would flop. I cycle to work and school and I would never go to Harbour Drive to use the bike lane. In SJ, I would probably just go on the sidewalk on Water Street, admittedly. People aren't going to go out of their way to use a bike lane. As mentioned before, harbour drive is also more exposed to the weather (wind, rain, fog) and has higher speeds. Why should cyclists have to go to Harbour Drive (when cyclists take up literally 1/4 the space of Water Street) yet cars aren't expected to? AND not to mention, cars have every other road in the City designated already, exclusively for them.

It's about PRIORITIZING cycling. The same is true for transit. Until they are a priority, no one will consider making the switch.

Diagonal parking would be retrogressing, in my opinion. It's prioritizing the car. We can talk all we want about how we don't like urban sprawl beyond Empire, or how we don't like Power Centres or Sub-Divisions (they are all products of the privately owned automobile). How will we ever be able to combat those urban-quandaries if we cannot make room for transit and cyclists on one, single road?

I commuted via bike to work in Winnipeg for a while - and I enjoyed it tremendously. There is an excellent network of trails and bike lanes. But they're flat.

St. John's is a different story. The hills make it an intensely unenjoyable place to bike to work for the business class. You might see a few students do it, but you'll never get office workers in downtown St. John's biking there from Kenmount Terrace and Southlands.

People bike to work in places where they won't need to have a shower when they get to the office.

And, trust me, you wouldn't be biking on the sidewalks on Water Street. You'd get your ass whooped just for trying. People in St. John's don't tolerate that sort of thing. It's considered rude. Bike in the street, if you must.

And I disagree - I think biking on Harbour Drive would be the best possible solution for downtown. And the bikers would like being able to see the harbour. I'd certainly much rather bike on Harbour Drive than Water Street, personally.

[PoscStudent]

Originally Posted by Copes

I'd personally prefer wider sidewalks if we're going to scrap bike lines. Tables outside of restaurants, urban art, benches, plants, etc. would make the whole area much more walkable.

That's my preference as well. I'm not a big fan of bike lanes that are just painted on the road either. I think Signal and Jeddy's point of having bike lanes on Harvour Drive could be smart. My original point was that we could have room for bike lanes, which we do not now, but maybe they're not needed.

[mrjanejacobs]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

I commuted via bike to work in Winnipeg for a while - and I enjoyed it tremendously. There is an excellent network of trails and bike lanes. But they're flat.

St. John's is a different story. The hills make it an intensely unenjoyable place to bike to work for the business class. You might see a few students do it, but you'll never get office workers in downtown St. John's biking there from Kenmount Terrace and Southlands.

People bike to work in places where they won't need to have a shower when they get to the office.

And, trust me, you wouldn't be biking on the sidewalks on Water Street. You'd get your ass whooped just for trying. People in St. John's don't tolerate that sort of thing. It's considered rude. Bike in the street, if you must.

And I disagree - I think biking on Harbour Drive would be the best possible solution for downtown. And the bikers would like being able to see the harbour. I'd certainly much rather bike on Harbour Drive than Water Street, personally.

Montreal is quite hilly. Scandinavian cities are quite hilly. Yet, cycling thrives in those places. If you are coming from the west end or east end, it's not that bad, it's relatively flat, actually. If you are coming from the centre and you're going to work, it's mostly downhill so no need to be excessively sweaty.

Not to mention, particularly hilly cities have cyclist-lifts. Lol, here's a silly video:

http://www.boreme.com/posting.php?id=16829

If there were adequate bike lanes from kenmount terrace to downtown, you could do it in 15 minutes without needing to sweat-to-death in the process.

Well I cannot bike on Water Street because I would rather pissoff pedestrians then get hit by a car (which is extremely likely). I think it's rude when pedestrians tell cyclists they need to bike in dangerous streets. I think it's rude when motorists in St.John's honk and yell at you to get off the streets. Where is the cyclist left to go? Please, tell me.

And a recreational bike lane on Harbour Drive sounds like a great idea - but a commuting bike lane wouldn't work. People on their way to work/school don't care about scenery/ taking in the view, it's about efficiency. I certainly don't look anywhere but straight when I'm commuting by bike.

[SignalHillHiker]

Most of the business parkade entrances are along Harbour Drive, so they'd presumably have to go there to lock their bikes in the company-supplied cages anyway (assuming it works as it did in Winnipeg).

And I believe it's not a question of just pissing off pedestrians. In Manitoba, it is illegal (and the ticket is a significant amount) to bike on sidewalks. I assume that's also the case here.

[mrjanejacobs]

But I also think it's about visibility. No one will see the cyclists on Harbour Drive. Water Street has high visibility and will have the best chances of resonating with non-cyslists. No one goes on Harbour Drive. There is nothing on Harbour Drive other than cars and The Keg. Oh right, cyclists are second class citizens. haha

[mrjanejacobs]

There are several spaces along Water Street where generous bike racks could be installed. Ex. Scotia place, war memorial, harbourside park, convention centre, george street, etc.

And I repeat - I would rather risk getting a ticket for being on a sidewalk than get hit by a car. If decision-makers don't want cyclists on the sidewalk, they'll need to build bike lanes.

[SignalHillHiker]

Second-class citizens? That's just foolish. We only have so much room on Water Street and we have to make the best use of it.

As for cycling working in other hilly cities... they're not hilly in the way we are.

Take me, for example. I live on Prince of Wales Street. If I was heading down to Relish for a burger, I can walk there in about 10 minutes. I'd never bike it. It's steeply downhill the entire way - so I'd just be riding my brake, afraid of losing control, the whole way there. And I'd have to walk my bike back up, so it's just extra work.

Walking is the easiest option for me. Even easier than driving because I don't have to look for a parking space in the area.

So that's what I do.

No amount of bike lanes on my street is going to change that. It's more convenient to walk or even drive.

And that's the case for, I imagine, most residents of St. John's.

[mrjanejacobs]

I don't think someone who lives off Barter's Hill is a good example for assessing the feasibility of biking. Walking is definitely the best option for you. But that's also anecdotal. If you live in Cowan Heights, Waterford Valley, East End, Kilbride, Pleasantvile, etc - biking would be a better option than walking, for example.

And I know you're not intentionally making cyclists second-class citizens. But that's what you're doing. You're saying, well you're not a priority. Your transport mode is not a priority. Cars are more important and so is parking. You're engaging a process of deprioritization. Proof: "We only have so much room on Water Street and we have to make the best use of it." Cycling isn't the best use?

Cycling has endless benefits. Every single person that opts to cycle instead of drive will make a high-profile bike lane worth it.

[Marty_Mcfly]

I have so much to catch up on! But I see some potentially amazing plans posted a while back, I'll comment on them as soon as I can.

[Copes]

My thoughts on bike lanes have been expressed here by others. I like the ideas of bike lanes in general. However I've never seen it working in St. John's. I'm not a biker myself, however I'd like to be. I just could never, ever bring myself to bike downtown. Sure, the trip there would be quick... but the trip home... it would be awful. I think bike lanes are great ideas in 95% of cities. When you take our hills with our rain and our fog and our snow, I think we are one of the 5%. I just don't think they will see the use that they might see elsewhere.

However I'd love to be proven wrong.

Does San Francisco have bike lanes?

EDIT: And I forget who said it, but yeah, bike lanes painted onto the already existing street is complete garbage. Huge pain in the ass. Montreal's bike lanes are AMAZING! That's the type of bike lane I would expect. God I had fun renting bikes and traveling around Montreal last year.

[mrjanejacobs]

I would have to disagree, haha (surprised?)

I think the best examples are Copenhagen and Amsterdam - perhaps the two most bike-friendly cities in the world. These are both north european cities and they get LOTS of precipitation (I wouldn't say more than St.John's, but they get a lot too). I also find Montreal has more perpetual snow. It sticks around forever. In St.John's, we get LOTS of snow, but it disappears just as quickly as it comes.

And the hill in St.John's is definitely an issue. But it also depends on how you approach downtown. As I said before, if you're coming from the west (Waterford Valley, Cowan Heights) or the east (Pleasantville, east end) it's really not that big of an issue. Also if you are circulating throughout the centre (between Mun-Rabittown-Empire-Elizabeth - this area) it's also not that bad. Also, in the long run, if say 2-3 bike-lifts were installed along the hill downtown, say on long's hill in the east and barter's hill in the west, it could be doable.

Cycling can succeed anywhere. Literally anywhere. But for cycling to really succeed, transit needs to be strong as well to supplement a cyclist's lifestyle (in the winter, in bad weather, at night).

You also may not have seen it working in St.John's because there hasn't been an effort put into making it work. These on-road signs they put down (in some cases, in the most random areas) were a complete waste of money and really half-baked. Not only do they not work, but they actually discourage cycling and escalate motorist's frustration with bike lanes (reference: Walter Harding - lol).

Montreal has a phenomenal biking network. Phenomenal. The perfect mix of commuting lanes and recreational lanes. Traffic-separated lanes and road-separated lanes. You really don't need lanes everywhere. You just need a couple main arteries that will bring you in and out of major destinations (much like rapid transit).