Paris, museum city

[big T]

Minato, as a fellow French citizen I'm thoroughly ambivalent about this thread. I have to say I very much share much of Mercutio's amazement at your continuing efforts to bring out the most generic and unremarkable parts of an exceptional city which, like it or not, people come from around the world to visit and experience. Okay, so you're showing 'the other side' of Paris and, given we're on an urban forum, that is indeed conducive to interesting discussion. But I think your presenting this as 'the real Paris' is simply taking it too far.

I'm not about to try and guess your intentions or motivations, but after going through your comments you really come off as quite insecure. Why are you feeling the need to compare Paris to London and NYC -- it is you who brought up Ldn in this thread after all? Paris is simply different, and we should embrace this fact and make the most of it. I don't see any value in pretending that the average Parisian drinks Starbucks coffee and dwells in a brownstone walk-up -- we all know it's not true, and hopefully we all realize it's not even something to shoot for.

I hope I'm not sounding too harsh, I really think I understand where you're coming from and what you're trying to do, but I feel you could maybe tone down the insecurities a bit and start embracing all that makes Paris, Paris -- in its own unique way. You'll see that there is much, much more to 'modern Paris' than commie blocks and cookie-cutter green glass lowrises -- like Mercutio said, why not show the Louvre pyramid? the Quai Branly? Velib, anyone? you know, all this stuff that is getting done here today and will be adopted elsewhere tomorrow -- Paris' contribution towards reinventing urbanism, right here and now.

Maybe you should try to spend some amount of time in Ldn or NYC, surely that will shatter a couple of myths and idealizations and help you appreciate how good you have it in la Ville Lumiere -- and how pointless all this versus crap is

[Minato Ku]

I would also show these buildings but I haven't photographed it yet.
The new building C42 in the Champs Elysee is alxo very interresting.

The commiees block was just because someone said that I like graffity but in the reality I prefer commies.

I would not call these building commmies, it is more like at an old version of condon, these aren't public building but it is for upper middle class and these have many services (Some have swimming pool).

Originally Posted by big T

Paris is simply different, and we should embrace this fact and make the most of it. I don't see any value in pretending that the average Parisian drinks Starbucks coffee and dwells in a brownstone walk-up -- we all know it's not true, and hopefully we all realize it's not even something to shoot for.

It is true Parisian aren't different than NY or Londoner, it is just a myth.
The starbucks outside the touristic districts are crowded.
The true parisian are white, black, east asian, south asian, arab...

I am sorry to say this and to break your drames.

[Metropolitan]

Originally Posted by big T

Minato, as a fellow French citizen I'm thoroughly ambivalent about this thread. I have to say I very much share much of Mercutio's amazement at your continuing efforts to bring out the most generic and unremarkable parts of an exceptional city which, like it or not, people come from around the world to visit and experience. Okay, so you're showing 'the other side' of Paris and, given we're on an urban forum, that is indeed conducive to interesting discussion. But I think your presenting this as 'the real Paris' is simply taking it too far.

The truth is that there's no one "real Paris". The user anm, despite being from Moscow, summed it up brilliantly on the third post of this thread: "Paris has many different faces - historic core, riverfront, La Defence, big parks, social housing/commiblocks, etc. This is one of them. It may not be a major tourist attraction, but I do not think of it as "plain".". Paris is clearly a surprizingly diverse city. And actually, one needs time to explore that diversity as too often people stick to one perception of the city, without noticing the forest behind the tree.

Now this being said, it's true that sometimes even I could be annoyed to see Minato Ku posting pictures of dull buildings to show his Paris in some forums, but hey, if that's what he likes, why would I prevent him from doing it? He's free to do so. Even if his images aren't the same as mines. As I've told you, there's no "real" perception of Paris. Each individual has his own. Paris is a giant of 10 million people, a country in itself. It's natural that it doesn't ring the same bell to anyone.

I'm not about to try and guess your intentions or motivations, but after going through your comments you really come off as quite insecure. Why are you feeling the need to compare Paris to London and NYC -- it is you who brought up Ldn in this thread after all?

First, it's Mercutio who brought up London in this thread, not Minato Ku. And I'm actually the one who voluntarily provoked him, because Mercutio/Monkey is notoriously known as a London troll. Second point, London and NYC have absolutely nothing in common. You simply cannot put them in the same category as they are structurally totally opposed. Manhattan is a packed up city whereas London is a city with no border. I really fail to see what else than financial activities and language both cities would share.

Paris is simply different, and we should embrace this fact and make the most of it. I don't see any value in pretending that the average Parisian drinks Starbucks coffee and dwells in a brownstone walk-up -- we all know it's not true, and hopefully we all realize it's not even something to shoot for.

Well, be glad or sad, but Starbucks are getting tremendously popular even here in Paris. The reasons are simple. The expresso costs 1€ in Starbucks as opposed to 2.20€ in regular cafés. Furthermore, the service and comfort in a Starbuck is generally far superior to the one in a regular café. If Starbucks could at least pressure usual Parisian cafés to adapt, that wouldn't be that bad. Even if I do like going to Starbucks because of this, it's true that it's quite sad to see Starbucks spreading all over the world, but that's how it is.

I hope I'm not sounding too harsh, I really think I understand where you're coming from and what you're trying to do, but I feel you could maybe tone down the insecurities a bit and start embracing all that makes Paris, Paris -- in its own unique way. You'll see that there is much, much more to 'modern Paris' than commie blocks and cookie-cutter green glass lowrises -- like Mercutio said, why not show the Louvre pyramid? the Quai Branly? Velib, anyone?

Are you sure you're French? If that's the case you're probably not from Paris, which is fine by the way. When was the last time you've been to Paris? I hope I'm not sounding too harsh, but you talk as a tourist.

you know, all this stuff that is getting done here today and will be adopted elsewhere tomorrow -- Paris' contribution towards reinventing urbanism, right here and now.

It's been a long time that Paris has invented nothing in urbanism. Wild unregulated suburbia scattered with cités HLM here or there and soulless road avenues. That's what Paris "invented" as an urbanism since the 50's. Nothing to be really proud of.

Maybe you should try to spend some amount of time in Ldn or NYC, surely that will shatter a couple of myths and idealizations and help you appreciate how good you have it in la Ville Lumiere -- and how pointless all this versus crap is

I fail to see why you blame Minato Ku about this. He made a lot of efforts to avoid that war to happen. Mercutio is the one who proposed it, and I'm the one who accepted it. If there are people to blame, that would be I and Mercutio, not Minato. Anyway, my sister lives in London and I've spent several months in New York City. I know well enough both cities to realize they have absolutely nothing in common. I fell in love of New York at the very first minute I crossed Manhattan Bridge by taxi, and this has never disappeared from me.

It's all a matter of urban life, density, vibrancy. It's only during my second stay in NYC, in august 2001, that I realized that if I loved that city so much, it was mainly for the same reasons I was in love of Paris. It has quite depressed me to tell the truth. Indeed, I realized I didn't love the city because it was "exotic" but because it was like home... making me feel as an ugly individual lacking curiosity. But facts are facts. The people are the same, they behave the same, the streets are the same, the neighbourhoods are the same. And funnily what people don't like in them, are generally the same things.

London is another thing. It's more open, more green, more about having the good things of big cities without having the bad things. As someone who chosed to live in Montreal, I guess you would be happier in London than in NYC or Paris.

But anyway, you should understand something. When I compare Paris and NYC the way I do, it's not because I feel insecure of anything. It's simply because I share my own experiment, which I agree could be different to others. As about Minato ku, I know him well-enough to know he's actually a fan of Tokyo before everything. Hey, he's even named as a district of that city!

[big T]

Originally Posted by Metropolitan

The truth is that there's no one "real Paris". The user anm, despite being from Moscow, summed it up brilliantly on the third post of this thread: "Paris has many different faces - historic core, riverfront, La Defence, big parks, social housing/commiblocks, etc. This is one of them. It may not be a major tourist attraction, but I do not think of it as "plain".". Paris is clearly a surprizingly diverse city. And actually, one needs time to explore that diversity as too often people stick to one perception of the city, without noticing the forest behind the tree.

I actually agree -- and that is what I've been telling MK: his displaying only those areas and calling it 'the real Paris' is as much a misrepresentation as only posting pics of historic buildings. I understand he's trying to create a balance by tipping the scale the other way, but to me it does come across as insecure and bordering on denial. I guess all I'm saying is if you want to convey a sense of balance, your post itself needs to show some. Apologies to you and MK if my point was not clear.

As for what/who sparked the versus shitfest -- there is evidently some amount of history between you guys, and I really don't want to get into that.
I'll just clarify one thing:

Second point, London and NYC have absolutely nothing in common.

I agree with this much, as this is the very gist of my post -- every city is unique, and this is why the versus crap is pointless. If my formulation made you or anyone else think I was lumping Ldn and NYC together, that was unintentional.

Regarding Sbux, last time I was in Paris was in 2006 and I don't remember seeing more than a couple -- but fair enough, you guys live there and I'll take your word for it. Even then, I still believe there is -- hopefully -- a lot to be said about culture and lifestyle in Paris -- just like I don't think McD's killed off this uniqueness, I don't think Starbucks will either. And even if it achieves the same mainstream status, it will never become a defining Parisian icon.

And btw yeah, je suis certain d'etre Francais! Quelle question :p though you correctly guessed I'm not from Paris (not even from 'la metropole' en fait), I was lucky to spend some time there (up to a month at a time, 4 or 5 times) and liked it immensely. So my views probably do remain those of a tourist, I'll give you that.

One last point:

It's been a long time that Paris has invented nothing in urbanism. Wild unregulated suburbia scattered with cités HLM here or there and soulless road avenues. That's what Paris "invented" as an urbanism since the 50's. Nothing to be really proud of.

No way josé! Of course there's been a lot of bad, but we do have good stuff to show as well. Just take La Defense -- even if I don't like some aspects of it, I think we can all agree it was a radical shift in the way business districts are designed and organized. Or the top notch public transit system in terms of coverage and efficiency.

Again, there is a lot to show wrt the modern face of Paris. MK certainly has a right to post any pictures he sees fit, but I fail to see how repeated posts filled with the blandest, most forgettable architecture possible help with anything as far as his (apparent) 'modern Paris' agenda is concerned. Minato, FWIW I far prefer when you post pictures showcasing ethnic diversity and architectural diversity, which I know you do as well.

Minato, I would reply to your post as well, but I feel it would further drag down the thread, and I'd be reiterating many of the same points anyway. Hope you didn't take anything personally, as I said I understand and appreciate your motives, and I am merely questioning your way of getting your point across.

[brisavoine]

Originally Posted by big T

But I think your presenting this as 'the real Paris' is simply taking it too far.

Originally Posted by Metropolitan

The truth is that there's no one "real Paris".

Metropolitan is quite right. There's no "real" Paris. In a metropolis of 11 million people stretching 50 miles from its southernmost suburbs to its northernmost suburbs and built over the past 4 centuries, especially the 20th century, there is tremendous variety as anyone can imagine.

This is probably what most foreign people have in mind when they refer to the "real" Paris (the funny thing being that this picture wasn't even taken inside the administrative City of Paris).



This is, however, only a tiny part of the metropolis. Only about 1.5 million of the 11 million inhabitants of the metropolis live in such neighborhoods. And only about a quarter of the 5.5 million Parisian workers work in such neighborhoods.

If you want to know the "real" Paris you have to explore the metropolis through and through, away from the historical centre. So let's go on a tour, disrespective of administrative borders, of course.

If there is such a thing as the "real" Paris, I think this picture captures it best. Detached houses next to midrise residential housing with also the usual ugly highrise housing projects, and La Défense and the Eiffel Tower in the background. That's the urban landscape experienced by most of the 11 million people living in the metropolis.


Crime-ridden ghetto in northern Paris.


Rich people, on the opposite, live in leafy areas in western Paris.


Ethnic landscape in southeastern Paris.


Few people know it, but there is more than just ugly concrete housing projects and bland residential houses in the suburbs. The density of private mansions in the metropolis is higher than any other place I know in Europe, thanks to 10 centuries of royal and republican power concentrated in Paris. This mansion is in southern Paris near Orly Airport.


Typical landscape for millions of Parisian commuters.


A sea of detached houses in southeastern Paris.


Another social ghetto, in eastern Paris.


Wealthy neighborhoods around Enghien Lake in northwestern Paris, one of my favorites areas in the metropolis.


New residential developments in eastern Paris. They try to build in a more "traditional" way and avoid the mistakes of the ugly concrete housing projects built in the 1960s and 1970s.

[Metropolitan]

Well, Brisavoine, I agree with your post though I must confess that among the 11 pictures you posted, none are of the city proper. I guess it's hard to show the "real NYC" with no pictures of Manhattan, or even the "real Amsterdam" with no pictures of the canals. That's also part of the reality, and actually, even more considering that central districts are those which are the most shared by everyone.

For instance, here's yet another aspect of the real Paris. Rue de Rivoli by JP:

[Metropolitan]

Finally, here's a fun video of what could also happen sometimes in Paris...
Minato, this isn't the regular Naturally 7 video, I think you would be curious to watch it. I would be interested in having your comments about it too.

• Video Link

[brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Metropolitan

Well, Brisavoine, I agree with your post though I must confess that among the 11 pictures you posted, none are of the city proper. I guess it's hard to show the "real NYC" with no pictures of Manhattan.

Well, most New Yorkers live in Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx, so in a way you could say that Manhattan is not the "real" New York. Rows of houses in Brooklyn would certainly reflect better the life of most New Yorkers. But then it's also true that most jobs are still concentrated in Manhattan, so Manhattan is still the epitome of New York (for lack of a better word), at least during the day.

In Paris not only the overwhelming majority of Parisians live outside of the city proper, but the City of Paris has also lost its lead in terms of jobs. Back 30 years ago most of the jobs were still concentrated in the city proper, but this is not true anymore. The City of Paris has even been passed by the only inner suburbs (i.e. not even counting the outer suburbs). According to the latest figures (January 2006), there are 1,653,551 jobs in the City of Paris vs. 1,931,835 in the inner suburbs (which include La Défense).

Originally Posted by Metropolitan

That's also part of the reality, and actually, even more considering that central districts are those which are the most shared by everyone.

Actually, no. I'd say what's most shared by the 11 million inhabitants of the metropolis are the suburban freeways. I know you live in the central part of Greater Paris, so you have this vision of things, but you should know that a lot of the 7 million+ people who don't live in the central part rarely go to central Paris. I know people living in the western suburbs who go to central Paris like once a year. This is not to say that central Paris is not vibrant. It has a unique vibrancy of course, but the metropolis is so spread out that I wouldn't say the central districts are more representative of the metropolis than the suburban areas I showed above.

[Minato Ku]

Actually we (Metropolitan, Brisavoine and me) live in the central area

Metropolitan Issy les Moulineaux


Brisavoine near the champs Elysee


Minato ku Montrouge



I don't disagree with Brisavoine.
It is not because the some part of central Paris is like a museum that the whole city is a museum.
Actually Paris and its inner suburbs (The core of the urban area) build more office than NYC. It could be weird for many because they see Paris, only like the Louvre district.

[Minato Ku]

Do you know this in Saint Lazare ?

[Minato Ku]

I will continue with modern architecture in inner Paris.

Picture by JP
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=165741

[Grumpy]

^^ those are some impressive photos of Paris