Perimeter Highway | Winnipeg

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by StNorberter

There are areas where short merge lanes are a problem. Pembina and the Perimeter isn't one of those areas.

I don't know how you reach your conclusion, but I would argue that not only is it a problem, it's one of the worst offenders as far as merge lanes on overpasses go. There's an argument to be made about other locations where there are mo merge lanes, but I find that they generally aren't as dangerous because they happen at places you might be inclined to stop anyways. Theres also an element of blindness from people hidden behind the hill. This occurs in a couple other places, but the geometry makes it especially dangerous as you're going around a tight corner and expected to be looking for traffic coming on the perimeter and negotiating the tight corner as you accelerate and beware of cars in front of you potentially slamming on the brakes. It's a terrible mix.

This is not only a problem, its exceptionally poor road design and creates a really dangerous situation.

The fact that drivers are able to do it safely most of the time does not negate the fact that the road alignment et al create a dangerous situation.

[BuildUpWpg]

Originally Posted by Stormer

They complain about the cost of infrastructure in the U.S., but it is far worse in Canada. This is not unique to MB.

Bring in more American constructions companies to do the work, as with done with Flatiron and the Hwy 59 interchange?

[plrh]

Companies are free to bid from out of province. They just can't get their prices low enough. Flatiron was technically out of Alberta for their Canadian projects. It is harder for non-locals because all of the large local companies own gravel pits around the province. So the company that gets a specific highway job will likely own the closest pit.

[bomberjet]

One of the factors regarding Pembina. The bridge's were just reconstructed to 3 lanes each direction. If the perimeter was expanded to 6 lanes, changing it to a diamond will eliminate any further changes to the structures. if they wanted it 6 lanes and a parclo of some sort, they'd need to either widen or build additional bridges.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

There’s a mall on the east side of Perimeter Highway on Portage Avenue, and Assiniboine Downs, from what I’ve heard, can get busy. I’m still not convinced that a simple diamond will cut it. Maybe a loop from Portage Avenue W to Perimeter Highway south.

Even at peak traffic times, think Red River Ex, the existing Portage and Perimeter setup handles flows fairly well. I think the change to a diamond likely won't be an issue. The construction of Costco at Portage Ave and Festival Dr though could be an issue. That said there is a plan to extend Festival Dr north to the Headingley by-pass/CCW which would help move traffic away from the site. Even a short Festival Dr/CCW connection would be a huge change for the start. Sadly, CCW is just out of scope of the current review of the Perimeter.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by esquire

At least there's a plan in place, but the only stuff getting funded so far are relatively marginal improvements like whatever they did near 100 @ Roblin, the various access point closures and the like. What was the last new interchange on the south Perimeter, 100 @ Lagimodiere 40 years ago? It's crazy.

Within the last 5 years the Roblin interchange on the Perimeter had a major rebuild. The old bridge decking was completely removed, the median supporting post was also removed, the embankments under the bridge where shored up, new under lighting was added, etc. Part of the work was to expand the Perimeter capacity from 4 lanes to 6 lanes. as the added lanes do not exist yet there was still only 4 lanes under Roblin but you can easily see the added space for the extra lane. In terms of the "over" structure about the only thing not replaced was the approach roads and the different roads. From a functional point of view it looks identical as most of the work was done to not disrupt the current flows outside of the temporary construction closures.

[bomberjet]

I just checked in again to the MI website for the Perimeter Study and the boards posted are still from the last phase of the design study.

There should be updated versions presented at the open house in December. Showing the recommended plans for each location.

[Dengler Avenue]

Again, please go to those. I don’t want the naysayers to be too vocal there. Should I set a reminder 3 days in advance?

[esquire]

^ The only naysayers you really have to worry about are the provincial government's accountants...

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ The only naysayers you really have to worry about are the provincial government's accountants...

What about those rich people that wanna retain their premium access to the perimeter (aka those living on Waverley Street)?

[bomberjet]

They already lost access from the north. They'll lose access from the south whenever the works gets done. But they still have access at the new Kenaston location.

I'll be sure to provide my input.

Seems MI is really trying to do this right and has noted locals may have to suffer a bit for the good of everyone. The plans they presented showing an actual freeway are extremely promising. Now about that funding....

[Dengler Avenue]

Maybe Pallister will be like, "Forget it: The aboriginal issues, without the Feds stepping in, can't be solved. Let's use the money for highways and Winnipeg transit."

[morty]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Even at peak traffic times, think Red River Ex, the existing Portage and Perimeter setup handles flows fairly well. I think the change to a diamond likely won't be an issue. The construction of Costco at Portage Ave and Festival Dr though could be an issue. That said there is a plan to extend Festival Dr north to the Headingley by-pass/CCW which would help move traffic away from the site. Even a short Festival Dr/CCW connection would be a huge change for the start. Sadly, CCW is just out of scope of the current review of the Perimeter.

I'm worried there's going to be a lot of opposition to any changes at Portage and the Perimeter, as well as at Pembina.

I've seen a ton of near misses from weaving issues on the SB Perimeter bridge over Portage, both very heavy traffic movements. Having people in the right lane on the Perimeter driving 50 while people are flying past in the left lane at 110 is objectively dangerous and bad design.

There's a reason why cloverleafs are almost never built anymore, especially for highway to arterial interchanges (neither Portage nor Pembina are highways where they meet the Perimeter). A diamond is not ideal, but conversion to a parclo would make much more sense.
The SB Perimeter to WB Portage is also messy, with large double length semis coming off and weaving with traffic trying to get to the Iceplex/Downs area.

The number of people who drive straight through the mandatory exit into the weaving lane on WB Portage is also fairly high.

While the current set up may handle flows "fairly well", properly designed infrastructure should be as safe as possible and leave room for user error. There's also no pedestrian or cyclist access. I see people trying to walk through the area quite often thanks to the lack of transit service. Dangerous as hell. No need to stick with an outdated 60s design just to avoid two traffic lights on Portage.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by morty

I'm worried there's going to be a lot of opposition to any changes at Portage and the Perimeter, as well as at Pembina.

I've seen a ton of near misses from weaving issues on the SB Perimeter bridge over Portage, both very heavy traffic movements. Having people in the right lane on the Perimeter driving 50 while people are flying past in the left lane at 110 is objectively dangerous and bad design.

There's a reason why cloverleafs are almost never built anymore, especially for highway to arterial interchanges (neither Portage nor Pembina are highways where they meet the Perimeter). A diamond is not ideal, but conversion to a parclo would make much more sense.
The SB Perimeter to WB Portage is also messy, with large double length semis coming off and weaving with traffic trying to get to the Iceplex/Downs area.

The number of people who drive straight through the mandatory exit into the weaving lane on WB Portage is also fairly high.

While the current set up may handle flows "fairly well", properly designed infrastructure should be as safe as possible and leave room for user error. There's also no pedestrian or cyclist access. I see people trying to walk through the area quite often thanks to the lack of transit service. Dangerous as hell. No need to stick with an outdated 60s design just to avoid two traffic lights on Portage.

The situation you describe on Portage is almost exactly what takes place on pembina. People routinely going into the weaving lane from the mandatory exit, people stopping in the weaving lane trying to get onto the perimeter, people flying by in the passing lane while semis slowly chug into traffic (going 50 if they're empty, nevermind fully loaded), the people exiting the perimeter never sure whether they should speed ahead of a car that's merging and entering the loop at dangerous speed, or to hammer on the brakes in traffic to get behind the car merging, posing a serious risk to traffic behind them.

I drive that almost daily and it always makes me nervous. It's a bloody mess that needs fixing. It feels designed to create serious collisions.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by morty

I'm worried there's going to be a lot of opposition to any changes at Portage and the Perimeter, as well as at Pembina.

I've seen a ton of near misses from weaving issues on the SB Perimeter bridge over Portage, both very heavy traffic movements. Having people in the right lane on the Perimeter driving 50 while people are flying past in the left lane at 110 is objectively dangerous and bad design.

There's a reason why cloverleafs are almost never built anymore, especially for highway to arterial interchanges (neither Portage nor Pembina are highways where they meet the Perimeter). A diamond is not ideal, but conversion to a parclo would make much more sense.
The SB Perimeter to WB Portage is also messy, with large double length semis coming off and weaving with traffic trying to get to the Iceplex/Downs area.

The number of people who drive straight through the mandatory exit into the weaving lane on WB Portage is also fairly high.

While the current set up may handle flows "fairly well", properly designed infrastructure should be as safe as possible and leave room for user error. There's also no pedestrian or cyclist access. I see people trying to walk through the area quite often thanks to the lack of transit service. Dangerous as hell. No need to stick with an outdated 60s design just to avoid two traffic lights on Portage.

Why would people be against changes that improve the flow of traffic and address major safety issues?

[morty]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Why would people be against changes that improve the flow of traffic and address major safety issues?

Based on my past experiences at open houses, there's always a lot of grumpy people who don't truly read the boards or who are willing to have a reasonable conversation with the staff. They see new traffic lights, they get pissed off. It's low hanging fruit to complain about.

[Dengler Avenue]

What about a giant 3-lane roundabout interchange for those 2 locations? British style.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Again, please go to those. I don’t want the naysayers to be too vocal there. Should I set a reminder 3 days in advance?

Yes Please!

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by morty

I'm worried there's going to be a lot of opposition to any changes at Portage and the Perimeter, as well as at Pembina.

I think Pembina is going to end up being forced before Portage. Reality is Pembina is being replaced by the St Norbert by-pass and Portage is being replaced by CCW/Headingley by-pass.

Considering Portage will need a rebuild of the Assinboine bridge first in order to be six lanes there is a slim hope the Headingley by-pass gets completed before the changes to Portage.

My guess what happens? Perimeter from Lag to Pembina gets rebuilt as six lanes. Turning and merge lanes at St Marys and St Annes get double turn lanes from EB Perimeter with deeper storage areas and the WB merge lanes go long. That's it. No new grade separated crossings, nothing else done.

[dmacc]

^Well that's depressing