Perimeter Highway | Winnipeg - Page 116

WildCake · #**2301** Posted **Nov 4, 2019, 11:37 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by StNorberter

I think I see your problem. none of the speeds you mention are the correct speeds.

It's not 30 to 100 or vice versa. It's 100 through the cloverleaf at 40, and then back up to 60

or

into the cloverleaf at 40, accelerate out and through the merge lane and exit at the end of the merge lane at 100.

Very easy. The problem is with traffic that hits the merge lane and stops. BUt that's a driver, not a design issue.

I disagree. Driver error is an issue in many cases but in the case of short merge lanes on a cloverleaf with traffic levels greater than rural interchanges (think hwy 1 and hwy 12 being an okay level of service), it is a roadway problem.

When you have a cluster of vehicles looking to exit perimeter going from 100 to 40 in the span of 100 meters trying to interact with a cluster of cars looking to accelerate from 40 to 100 to enter perimeter, and to top it off have to contend with vehicles driving through at 100, its a recipe for disaster. The exiting and entering vehicles are in conflict as they are doing the exact opposite actions in a short length of space.

Making the pembina and portage interchanges with perimeter into parclos or diamonds will remove the weaving issue and neither pembina or portage will be deeply affected by having 2 additional lights, since you hit a light going 500m in either direction

Curmudgeon · #**2302** Posted **Nov 4, 2019, 11:56 PM**

The new I-94/Sheyenne St. interchange has opened in West Fargo. The two year project came in at $19.1 million (~ C$25.5 million). Beautifully done.

http://nddotfargo.com/projects/?id=9...vement-project

Photo at bottom can be enlarged.

optimusREIM · #**2303** Posted **Nov 5, 2019, 2:10 AM**

We need to ask ourselves what is so significantly different here that makes these sorts of projects so much more expensive...

Dengler Avenue · #**2304** Posted **Nov 5, 2019, 2:15 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

We need to ask ourselves what is so significantly different here that makes these sorts of projects so much more expensive...

Can flood prevention be the reason?

WildCake · #**2305** Posted **Nov 5, 2019, 3:33 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

We need to ask ourselves what is so significantly different here that makes these sorts of projects so much more expensive...

From what I gathered off the website this was just a rehab and some changes to the ramps (so basic earthwork). Does not seem like the bridges were modified, which is were the real $$ comes in

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Can flood prevention be the reason?

Perimeter is not part of flood prevention structures. AFAIK, Hwy 75 is the only major highway in the province that doubles as flood prevention measures (and moreso just designed to be flood resistant, so the highway stays open if the river gets too high)

Curmudgeon · #**2306** Posted **Nov 5, 2019, 3:50 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildCake

From what I gathered off the website this was just a rehab and some changes to the ramps (so basic earthwork). Does not seem like the bridges were modified, which is were the real $$ comes in...

Read more closely.

Project will Reconstruct/ Install/ Upgrade:

Two new bridges on I-94, etc.

Corndogger · #**2307** Posted **Nov 5, 2019, 4:15 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

The new I-94/Sheyenne St. interchange has opened in West Fargo. The two year project came in at $19.1 million (~ C$25.5 million). Beautifully done.

http://nddotfargo.com/projects/?id=9...vement-project

Photo at bottom can be enlarged.

Looks like they did a great job.

optimusREIM · #**2308** Posted **Nov 5, 2019, 5:15 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Read more closely.

Project will Reconstruct/ Install/ Upgrade:

Two new bridges on I-94, etc.

That's what I understood as well. It feels like here we build one bridge span and suddenly the project is over 100M

Corndogger · #**2309** Posted **Nov 5, 2019, 7:38 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

That's what I understood as well. It feels like here we build one bridge span and suddenly the project is over 100M

When your transportation department awards contracts is it based solely on who has the lowest bid or do they factor other things in? It would make a big difference if they built more at once so they could attract bigger players and help drive down costs. Doing one interchange at a time probably allows a few local players to "rig" prices and charge a lot more than what it actually costs them.

EdwardTH · #**2310** Posted **Nov 5, 2019, 2:18 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

We need to ask ourselves what is so significantly different here that makes these sorts of projects so much more expensive...

Unions....

WildCake · #**2311** Posted **Nov 5, 2019, 2:23 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Read more closely.

Project will Reconstruct/ Install/ Upgrade:

Two new bridges on I-94, etc.

My bad, yea definitely done quite inexpensively if they also had to ensure I94 kept moving during consteuction

bomberjet · #**2312** Posted **Nov 5, 2019, 3:03 PM**

$19 million American. Seems like that funding was for the bridge reconstruction and some other work. It mentions adjacent projects, which sees to be a lot of the roadway work.

Note it's also a reconstruction. So there is a lot fo money saved in not having to build embankments, do major grading operations, etc.

But yes, relatively cheap for what they did. We could build bridges here for that price too. It's all the other stuff that gets added on to projects.

Such as Waverley underpass. The brigde itself was probably $10 mil. It's all the other roadway works that add up.

optimusREIM · #**2313** Posted **Nov 5, 2019, 3:29 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by bomberjet

$19 million American. Seems like that funding was for the bridge reconstruction and some other work. It mentions adjacent projects, which sees to be a lot of the roadway work.

Note it's also a reconstruction. So there is a lot fo money saved in not having to build embankments, do major grading operations, etc.

But yes, relatively cheap for what they did. We could build bridges here for that price too. It's all the other stuff that gets added on to projects.

Such as Waverley underpass. The brigde itself was probably $10 mil. It's all the other roadway works that add up.

And so paving and rebuilding the road and intersection and digging a hole made up the other tens of millions?

Dengler Avenue · #**2314** Posted **Nov 5, 2019, 3:47 PM**

I can’t help but wonder whether unionized wage for construction is mandatory in MB just as in B.C.

bomberjet · #**2315** Posted **Nov 5, 2019, 3:49 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

And so paving and rebuilding the road and intersection and digging a hole made up the other tens of millions?

Yup. Paving is expensive.

I don't have the exact numbers. There's also a pump station which would cost like $10 million or something. It all adds up in the end. The structures aren't like $60 million dollars or anything like that.

Hecate · #**2316** Posted **Nov 5, 2019, 3:52 PM**

The cost variations of building an interchange a few hundred kilometres south compared to here are astounding. We are being exploited by corrupt politicians and their big builder friends.

OTA in Winnipeg · #**2317** Posted **Nov 5, 2019, 5:25 PM**

Isn't there a monopoly on concrete in this province?

Stormer · #**2318** Posted **Nov 5, 2019, 5:45 PM**

They complain about the cost of infrastructure in the U.S., but it is far worse in Canada. This is not unique to MB.

Spocket · #**2319** Posted **Nov 5, 2019, 5:50 PM**

None of that strikes me as particularly inexpensive. It's just a slightly modified parclo/diamond which means it's just a bridge span or two and paving, essentially. Not to mention that it's not a new interchange in the first place.

As for unionized labor, yeah, it may increase costs but I doubt it will break the bank or the budget considering that the labor costs and construction costs are all set and paid for by the province anyway.

As for us being "ripped off"...if you say so. As I'm not in the business of funding or building highways or any other construction-related field, I can't say but I doubt it's any more of a conspiracy than what normally goes on in a work-for-your-profit system anywhere else in the world. Seriously...even in former communist countries you still have to pay for this stuff.

StNorberter · #**2320** Posted **Nov 5, 2019, 6:17 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildCake

I disagree. Driver error is an issue in many cases but in the case of short merge lanes on a cloverleaf with traffic levels greater than rural interchanges (think hwy 1 and hwy 12 being an okay level of service), it is a roadway problem.

When you have a cluster of vehicles looking to exit perimeter going from 100 to 40 in the span of 100 meters trying to interact with a cluster of cars looking to accelerate from 40 to 100 to enter perimeter, and to top it off have to contend with vehicles driving through at 100, its a recipe for disaster. The exiting and entering vehicles are in conflict as they are doing the exact opposite actions in a short length of space.

Making the pembina and portage interchanges with perimeter into parclos or diamonds will remove the weaving issue and neither pembina or portage will be deeply affected by having 2 additional lights, since you hit a light going 500m in either direction

There are areas where short merge lanes are a problem. Pembina and the Perimeter isn't one of those areas.