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  #141  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2016, 8:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
This one is very unique though. The two main thoroughfares comverging downtown in a city with no freeways.
I don't see how it's unique. People cross both streets at multiple points. Nothing will get worse if the intersection is opened.
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  #142  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2016, 9:40 PM
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There are two turning lanes from NB to WB and two from EB to NB. The duration these lanes are useable will be substantially shortened by having people cross. As was said, it already takes a half hour to get through these few blocks during busy time and it most certainly get worse. As it does, other streets like Waterfront and Donald will get far busier.

I'm damn glad I don't live on Waterfront!
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  #143  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2016, 9:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
This one is very unique though. The two main thoroughfares comverging downtown in a city with no freeways.
Well the city, and apparently many of its people, have tried their hardest to make portage and main a freeway for car traffic. Think about how fast traffic would flow if we removed all sidewalks and just made them another lane for traffic. If we could move all the people underground and out of sight traffic will finally be free in this city!
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  #144  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2016, 9:56 PM
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There are people in those cars and they vote. Just remember that.
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  #145  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2016, 10:50 PM
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I do not see this being an issue next election. Currently, P&M is just dreadful, barren and not conducive to a vibrant downtown.
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  #146  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2016, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
This one is very unique though. The two main thoroughfares comverging downtown in a city with no freeways.
Most of our arguments are lost on many in here, too obtuse to understand that "opening P&M just because" isn't good enough with negative consequences.

As you mention Winnipeg is a city without an arterial road network that works because planners in the past failed to grasp that the city might actually grow in population in the future, because of this downtown thoroughfares are major links rightly or wrongly.
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  #147  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2016, 12:00 AM
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I can't wait for it to open to prove to everyone that the world will not end. It will be sweet after so many years of doomsday predictions. We should have higher aspirations for downtown than a suburban car funnel. It will open. The city will go on. In ten years we will laugh at ourselves and tell stories to our disbelieving children.
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  #148  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2016, 3:18 AM
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I can't wait for it to open to prove to everyone that the world will not end. It will be sweet after so many years of doomsday predictions. We should have higher aspirations for downtown than a suburban car funnel. It will open. The city will go on. In ten years we will laugh at ourselves and tell stories to our disbelieving children.
Do we have a contingency plan if it does spark the end of the world?
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  #149  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2016, 2:14 PM
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Do we have a contingency plan if it does spark the end of the world?
It is Winnipeg after all. I'm sure whatever it is, it involves putting up more traffic lights as chaos ensues.
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  #150  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2016, 7:19 PM
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Originally Posted by OTA in Winnipeg View Post
They should do a test run of the required light sequences for pedestrians with the barricades still up. At least then it could be tweaked for the best possible outcome for vehicular traffic. Assuming of course that this is going to happen anyway.
test run of light sequences, great idea!
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  #151  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2016, 10:59 PM
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first time someones hit by a car watch them close it again
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  #152  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2016, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
I can't wait for it to open to prove to everyone that the world will not end. It will be sweet after so many years of doomsday predictions. We should have higher aspirations for downtown than a suburban car funnel. It will open. The city will go on. In ten years we will laugh at ourselves and tell stories to our disbelieving children.
This "debate" is the height of Winnipeg parochialism. It's like there are no other cities in the world. I guess that's what happens when most peoples' models for what cities can be like are Albertsville and Scotsdale.


I say we go beyond opening Portage and Main to pedestrians, and completely rethink how those streets work. As far as broad avenues go, they're pretty inefficient and unpleasant compared to some of their peers internationally. In the Osborne Village thread we had a great conversation going about how we could make Confusion Corner better. We could approach Portage and Main the same way. I'd suggest eliminating the centre median of both streets and replacing it with two side medians, with 2 lanes of through traffic in each direction in the centre, and jughandle-esque left turns from the right in outer lanes.

An orientation like this answers the objections some people put forward to opening Portage and Main. The issue of left turns off Portage onto Main is moot because the current plan is to keep Main north of Portage closed, but this configuration would allow that to open. It would also make both streets easier to cross by breaking up their breadth.
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  #153  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2016, 11:26 PM
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Great thoughts. I can invision a bustling area with the surface lot adjacent to 201 Portage filled, and newer smaller buildings popping up in the vicinity. The curved main level of 201 Portage could have some very cool storefronts.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@39.76847...8i6656!6m1!1e1

Last edited by Urban recluse; Jul 24, 2016 at 11:42 PM.
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  #154  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2016, 3:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Wigglez View Post
Do we have a contingency plan if it does spark the end of the world?
Portage & Main reopens in time for Canada Games 2017. CF results. Becomes major campaign issue in 2018. Bowman loses. New mayor orders jersey barriers be installed immediately to reclose the intersection. Jersey barriers remain for the next 20 years. Sounds like a win/win.
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  #155  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2016, 4:28 PM
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portage & main reopens in time for canada games 2017. Cf results. Becomes major campaign issue in 2018. Bowman loses. New mayor orders jersey barriers be installed immediately to reclose the intersection. Jersey barriers remain for the next 20 years. Sounds like a win/win.
+1
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  #156  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2016, 6:38 PM
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Originally Posted by biguc View Post
This "debate" is the height of Winnipeg parochialism. It's like there are no other cities in the world. I guess that's what happens when most peoples' models for what cities can be like are Albertsville and Scotsdale.


I say we go beyond opening Portage and Main to pedestrians, and completely rethink how those streets work. As far as broad avenues go, they're pretty inefficient and unpleasant compared to some of their peers internationally. In the Osborne Village thread we had a great conversation going about how we could make Confusion Corner better. We could approach Portage and Main the same way. I'd suggest eliminating the centre median of both streets and replacing it with two side medians, with 2 lanes of through traffic in each direction in the centre, and jughandle-esque left turns from the right in outer lanes.

An orientation like this answers the objections some people put forward to opening Portage and Main. The issue of left turns off Portage onto Main is moot because the current plan is to keep Main north of Portage closed, but this configuration would allow that to open. It would also make both streets easier to cross by breaking up their breadth.
i don't follow...can you sketch that?
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  #157  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2016, 6:48 PM
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Originally Posted by CoryB View Post
Portage & Main reopens in time for Canada Games 2017. CF results. Becomes major campaign issue in 2018. Bowman loses. New mayor orders jersey barriers be installed immediately to reclose the intersection. Jersey barriers remain for the next 20 years. Sounds like a win/win.
....or.

portage and main reopens. people find other ways from one suburb to the other and traffic is reduced. it becomes a place again. ground floor retail returns, great public art fills each corner. empty parking lots finally get built on. it becomes a tourist attraction and place for civic celebration. winnipeg's new front yard. south main re-connects to the rest of downtown and becomes the vibrant pedestrian strip between the forks high density neighbourhood and the exchange district,....we finally begin to see that downtown commerce is not created by drivers and that to build an urban neighbourhood, people need to be put first. this ideal spreads throughout downtown, growing the population without subsidy because it has become a desirable and safe place to live. Downtown becomes a centre of pride in the city, driving tourism, investment and finally offering the lifestyle choices that keep our young people from moving elsewhere. the overall economy grows, increasing the tax base so the city can afford to fill suburban pot holes.

sounds like a win/win


...or maybe it continues to be a freeway interchange in the heart of our city so people can drive as fast as they can through downtown to their soul sucking cul de sac....you know...because that's what's most important in life.
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  #158  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2016, 6:57 PM
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
....or.

portage and main reopens. people find other ways from one suburb to the other and traffic is reduced. it becomes a place again. ground floor retail returns, great public art fills each corner. empty parking lots finally get built on. it becomes a tourist attraction and place for civic celebration. winnipeg's new front yard. south main re-connects to the rest of downtown and becomes the vibrant pedestrian strip between the forks high density neighbourhood and the exchange district,....we finally begin to see that downtown commerce is not created by drivers and that to build an urban neighbourhood, people need to be put first. this ideal spreads throughout downtown, growing the population without subsidy because it has become a desirable and safe place to live. Downtown becomes a centre of pride in the city, driving tourism, investment and finally offering the lifestyle choices that keep our young people from moving elsewhere. the overall economy grows, increasing the tax base so the city can afford to fill suburban pot holes.

sounds like a win/win


...or maybe it continues to be a freeway interchange in the heart of our city so people can drive as fast as they can through downtown to their soul sucking cul de sac....you know...because that's what's most important in life.
This. A thousand times, this.
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  #159  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2016, 6:59 PM
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I'm not sure if I'm reading this traffic flow diagram right, but seems Pembina/Corydon at confusion corner has relatively similar traffic volumes as Portage & Main.

Regardless, many intersections have very high volumes and seem to get by allowing pedestrians to cross.

http://winnipeg.ca/publicworks/traff...c-Flow-Map.pdf
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  #160  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2016, 7:11 PM
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
....or.

portage and main reopens. people find other ways from one suburb to the other and traffic is reduced. it becomes a place again. ground floor retail returns, great public art fills each corner. empty parking lots finally get built on. it becomes a tourist attraction and place for civic celebration. winnipeg's new front yard. south main re-connects to the rest of downtown and becomes the vibrant pedestrian strip between the forks high density neighbourhood and the exchange district,....we finally begin to see that downtown commerce is not created by drivers and that to build an urban neighbourhood, people need to be put first. this ideal spreads throughout downtown, growing the population without subsidy because it has become a desirable and safe place to live. Downtown becomes a centre of pride in the city, driving tourism, investment and finally offering the lifestyle choices that keep our young people from moving elsewhere. the overall economy grows, increasing the tax base so the city can afford to fill suburban pot holes.

sounds like a win/win


...or maybe it continues to be a freeway interchange in the heart of our city so people can drive as fast as they can through downtown to their soul sucking cul de sac....you know...because that's what's most important in life.
A guy could fill an entire buzzword bingo card with this.

Even the first sentence is crap. Find new routes where? Are alternate expressways going to magically appear or are you talking about funneling traffic down streets like Waterfront and Tache?

You are dealing only with fantasy, not facts.

Our public transit system relies extensively on an expiditious path through downtown. Already poor service will become poorer, causing further decreases in ridership.

Of course all problems are solveable. But for what? Is all this really worth it, for some stupid wet dream?
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