Portage and Main re-opening 2016

[rkspec]

what does that say to tourists visiting our city?
I just walked to P&M and in the 2-3 mins i stopped and looked, there is no instruction (that i saw) on how to cross to the other side. Unlike the people who work downtown 5 days a week, I rarely walk to P&M via foot and have been in Winnipeg square maybe 5-6 times ever, but a map of the underground tunnel system with a your are here marker would have been golden.

[Urban recluse]

With the effort, and pedestrians, there is no reason why P&M cannot become similar to Yonge & Dundas; not quite as elaborate, but I would like to see significant retail, signage and lights within the vicinity.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.65626...8i6656!6m1!1e1

[Gm0ney]

Wasn't there once talk about building pedestrian overpasses at P&M?

[buzzg]

What would it be like today if the Asper plan for a second building and "Times Square-like plaza" at P&M actually happened?

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by Andy6

They may diminish because people get tired of driving downtown and just don't go anymore. A traffic equilibrium will be found, at the expense of an even emptier downtown core. So, in that sense, it may well be forgotten, but not in a good way. That's my pessimistic guess about what will happen.

On our worst days, it takes a half hour to get home if you live on the fringe end of the city. Like, Jets game style traffic.

I'm always amazed at how quickly I can pass through downtown, and if that takes a minute longer, I won't be too upset.

Toronto has traffic problems. Vancouver has traffic problems. Boston has traffic problems. New York has traffic problems. Winnipeg? Not so much.

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

I agree on the vision bit. Making the barriers come down isn't a solution in and of itself but it is a critical component in revitalising p&m. I was just addressing the fact that even though the poll showed some opposition to removing the barriers, it is an important step for the area. And yes it does have to count but I don't think that this is going to be an overnight transformation by any means. Rather, it will be a gradual process, the full extent of whose benefits won't be known for a long time. The potential is staggering though.

It will absolutely be a gradual process, but the effects on downtown landlords might be somewhat more immediate. Point being, make a splash. These barriers should be down, but since they are not and we have a fragile downtown economy, do the best you can to mitigate losses to nearby businesses and landlords.

If this is done right, it would be a victory for the city. Make Portage and Main great again!

...sorry... but really, make it great, not just slightly less shitty.

Originally Posted by trueviking

^agreed. Opening the intersection won't see its full impact for 10 years.

It will open and there will be a year for everyone to see he sky didn't fall. The 40% who see downtown's future as a place to be and not something to drive through will be happy and supportive of the mayor come election time. The 60% who think the earth will open up and devour the city whole, will have time to realize their predictions were wrong and it won't be an election issue. Waiting until after the next election makes it an election issue (again), where people will be voting based on their fear of progress. Has to be done next year.

Agreed.

I simply hope that any opening of the intersection is done in concert with all landlords and businesses at the intersection, as then it would be an immediate improvement.

Originally Posted by GarryEllice

How is it going to hurt businesses underground? There's only a small handful of businesses in the actual Portage & Main underground -- a hair salon, a dollar store, a convenience store, a sushi place. I think that's it. The tailor and jeweler both recently closed. If you're using the underground to cross the street at Portage & Main, these are the only businesses that you'll walk past.

Most of the businesses are in the basements of the office towers and in Winnipeg Square, which you don't even pass through if you're just crossing P&M. And in any case, all of the underground businesses are completely oriented to the 9-to-5 office workers, who aren't suddenly going to stop buying lunch just because there's now a crosswalk upstairs.

When it comes to leasing and malls, traffic counts are huge.We can't consider the removal of barriers a success if the businesses are negatively affected. If business does not improve, our downtown won't either.

Beyond that, landlords are consistently trying to get HIGHER calibre tenants... Richardson's renovated underground, TD's renovations, Grain Exchange updates and 300 Main's elaborate expansion are ALL evidence of improvement... Not only could you lose the current ho-hum mix of tenants, you certainly won't attract the better new ones. This has to be a goal for landlords.

Furthermore, all the landlords literally have a mandate, a requirement to protect their tenants interests, not just their rent rolls. To consider the success of "a couple of shops" (it's more than that) as permissable collateral for mere barriers coming down is an absolute non-starter for downtown landlords.

They're not allowed to do that. If landlords aren't on board, then the final hatched plan will likely be underwhelming.

Originally Posted by buzzg

Exactly. These office workers are already in these connected buildings, and in winter, most are probably still going to choose to stay indoors for lunch.

Perhaps, but it's never that simple. Losses will be felt. I'm operating under the principle that something can be achieved without detriment. It is insentitive to view underground businesses as collateral, I think.

[StNorberter]

Originally Posted by windypeg

An emptier downtown core.... Emptier of cars maybe. This is not a bad thing. I walk downtown more than I drive and I honestly feel the most hostile thing about our downtown is the cars. Between the noise, the exhaust and people trying to mow you down as they take a turn we get the traffic experience of a city 5 times bigger than Winnipeg is and its not a good thing. Traffic calming is desperately needed for the downtown. Let those drivers passing through find alternate routes, downtown won't miss them.

And most of the respondents to that bogus CAA poll were people in the "I never go downtown and proud of it" camp anyway, who crap on anything transit or AT related any chance they get just for the heck of it. Why should people who don't even leave transcona have such a say in what happens downtown?

^This.

There are 4 options in the report. Avg. increase for a car to cross P & M when barriers removed is about 20 sec. Councillors like Browaty like to scream that this will turn the whole city into gridlock, reality is that it probably won't even be noticed.

As for the underground shops? There will be slim to no impact. Their traffic is destination based, and remember, in most cases you have to go down, up out a door around a corner and down a sidewalk just to wait at the corner to cross the street.

I work at P & M, I'd like to see the barriers down, but once they are, it's not like I'm going to avoid going underground.

[Cyro]

Understandably the conversation reg: Portage and Main Re-Opneing has gone on for several days and replies are still necessary, hence 2 replies have been moved to this thread, please continue here, the suggestion I posted earlier seems to have been missed. Appreciated ...

[CoryB]

Can we start a pool on how long after the opening of Portage and Main before a pedestrian is struck and killed there? Good thing opening Portage and Main is all about improving safety for pedestrians...

[esquire]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Can we start a pool on how long after the opening of Portage and Main before a pedestrian is struck and killed there? Good thing opening Portage and Main is all about improving safety for pedestrians...

How is it that we can handle pedestrians crossing downtown intersections of comparable traffic counts, visibility, configuration, etc., yet opening Portage and Main will somehow lead to traffic armageddon and/or carnage?

I mean, I know Winnipeg drivers generally aren't the best but I don't think they're that deficient that they couldn't cope with people crossing the street at one more intersection.

[drew]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Can we start a pool on how long after the opening of Portage and Main before a pedestrian is struck and killed there? Good thing opening Portage and Main is all about improving safety for pedestrians...

Should we close off every intersection where a pedestrian is struck and killed?

I presume as you are so concerned about pedestrian safety that you have some data on other deadly intersections in the City - and are lobbying the City to close those ones off too?

[Urban recluse]

For a downtown that funnels so much traffic through it (and not having a highway), one may wonder why downtown is not incredibly vibrant.

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by StNorberter

As for the underground shops? There will be slim to no impact. Their traffic is destination based, and remember, in most cases you have to go down, up out a door around a corner and down a sidewalk just to wait at the corner to cross the street.

No, it is not as simple as being destination based... I work downtown a lot these days and I recognize the same faces through various parts of the underground or skywalk, all working in different buildings.

Richardson sees traffic from 360, 201 Portage sees traffic from MTS, 220 Prtage see traffic from Cargill all the way to MTS, etc...

As people are led through this network they pass the shops. If the barricades came down (which I'm in favour of if executed well) any downtown building would see reduced traffic from workers in a neighbouring property.

Although the offices are destinations, a lot of the shops are passerby conveniences. Take away the convenience and you reduce store traffic.

As for leasing up vacant space, traffic count is huge. If less people travel underground between buildings, a prospective tenant loses interest.



This can offset by volume at P+M as a whole. If the barriers come down and an ambitious project to revitalize the intersection for pedestrians takes place, the increased amount of people would offset the loss in underground traffic. If downtown as a whole gets busier, underground will be fine.

If ONLY the barriers came down and that's it, nobody is gonna be all "let's go downtown on saturday, no more barriers!". All it would do is ease convenience of people already at their destination; workers at P+M.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

For a downtown that funnels so much traffic through it (and not having a highway), one may wonder why downtown is not incredibly vibrant.

Just wait until P&M re-opens to pedestrians, it will Neverland, Land of Oz and Shangri-La all combined into one with golden sidewalks and butterflies!

[Urban recluse]

Golden sidewalks? Paid for by the growth fees?

[TimeFadesAway]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Just wait until P&M re-opens to pedestrians, it will Neverland, Land of Oz and Shangri-La all combined into one with golden sidewalks and butterflies!

And traffic wise, it will apparently turn Winnipeg into L.A. at rush hour, with piles of pedestrian's dead bodies stacked at each corner and Main backed up to at least Inkster to the north and down St. Mary's to Bishop Grandin to the south.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by TimeFadesAway

And traffic wise, it will apparently turn Winnipeg into L.A. at rush hour, with piles of pedestrian's dead bodies stacked at each corner and Main backed up to at least Inkster to the north and down St. Mary's to Bishop Grandin to the south.

More like backed up to Gimli in the north and Morris in the south.

[esquire]

All automotive traffic will grind to a permanent halt... which could have wonderful spinoffs for downtown residential. All the more reason to do it!!!

[drew]

Originally Posted by CoryB

More like backed up to Gimli in the north and Morris in the south.

It's already backed up to Maryland going eastbound every day around 5pm - so why not share the traffic love?

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by esquire

All automotive traffic will grind to a permanent halt... which could have wonderful spinoffs for downtown residential. All the more reason to do it!!!

Without adding that the sky will begin falling and Donald Trump will be so popular in the US that he will be elected king of Canada. Millions will die in the ensuing thermonuclear war. P&m opening to pedestrians gets declared as one of the horsemen of the apocalypse.

[StNorberter]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

No, it is not as simple as being destination based... I work downtown a lot these days and I recognize the same faces through various parts of the underground or skywalk, all working in different buildings.

Richardson sees traffic from 360, 201 Portage sees traffic from MTS, 220 Prtage see traffic from Cargill all the way to MTS, etc...

As people are led through this network they pass the shops. If the barricades came down (which I'm in favour of if executed well) any downtown building would see reduced traffic from workers in a neighbouring property.

Although the offices are destinations, a lot of the shops are passerby conveniences. Take away the convenience and you reduce store traffic.

As for leasing up vacant space, traffic count is huge. If less people travel underground between buildings, a prospective tenant loses interest.



This can offset by volume at P+M as a whole. If the barriers come down and an ambitious project to revitalize the intersection for pedestrians takes place, the increased amount of people would offset the loss in underground traffic. If downtown as a whole gets busier, underground will be fine.

If ONLY the barriers came down and that's it, nobody is gonna be all "let's go downtown on saturday, no more barriers!". All it would do is ease convenience of people already at their destination; workers at P+M.

The stores in the underground are convenience based ( dollar store, ticket kiosk, restaurant, hair salon).

People frequent them because they want a snack, want sushi, need a haircut etc. The get little to no business from the "oh, I need to stop in here crowd". It's the business crowd that supports these businesses, I wouldn't expect there to be much if any loss of business - It will always be quicker for me to go underground from Royal Bank to Richardson bldg than it would be street level. The apocalypse for the underground businesses that everyone predicts won;t come to pass.