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  #7201  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2020, 10:14 PM
urbancore urbancore is offline
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It will be interesting to see how the eco crowd looks to digging tunnels. If we hit a natural spring or 2, they can lose their minds. Or maybe they won't care because it's downtown.

Let's get Elon on that "boring" work.
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  #7202  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2020, 10:18 PM
freerover freerover is offline
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Originally Posted by urbancore View Post
It will be interesting to see how the eco crowd looks to digging tunnels. If we hit a natural spring or 2, they can lose their minds. Or maybe they won't care because it's downtown.

Let's get Elon on that "boring" work.
Elon's tunnels are too small. Let's get a company with a proven track record.
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  #7203  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2020, 10:45 PM
ATX2030 ATX2030 is offline
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Originally Posted by electricron View Post
At least 10 years, around 2030.
Assuming rthe latest new starts examples with Federal funding, and limiting the scope to just light rail, here is what you can expect.
Norfolk Tide started running passengers on light rail trains in August 2011.
A major investment study was completed in 1997 that suggested using an abandoned freight railroad corridor linking Norfolk with Virginia Beach. In 1999, a referendum in Virginia Beach failed 56% to 44%. In 2000, Norfolk decided to move ahead with FTA approval for the EIS process. In 2007, the FTA granted the record of decision which completed the EIS process and released the Federal funding share for construction. There was about a full year delay in testing and construction, so the projected startup in 2010 was delayed to 2011.
Austin is presently at the point of asking the FTA for permission to start the EIS process, about where Norfolk was at in 1998-1999. They would be where Norfolk was in 2000 if they can get FTA approval to start the EIS process next year in 2021. With Norfolk’s timeline as an example, assuming a 2021 FTA approval for starting the EIS, trains will be testing in 2031 and running with passengers aboard in 2032.
That was a successful light rail project with some delays, nothing moves through a major construction project without obstacles to hurdler over. Norfolk does not have tunnels with their light rail line.
Can Austin do better finishing the light rail lines faster? Yes. Can it do worse? Yes. Only time will tell.
Thanks. Just hard to comprehend it taking 10 years. With Austin's track record I'll take the over.....
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  #7204  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2020, 4:45 AM
slippi slippi is offline
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Originally Posted by urbancore View Post

Let's get Elon on that "boring" work.
Please keep that con man as far away from my tax dollars as possible.
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  #7205  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2020, 5:18 AM
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Please keep that con man as far away from my tax dollars as possible.
Trevor Milton of Nikola is the true fraud in the EV world. Elon is by far the most successful and is doing some amazing stuff with Tesla and Space X. Why do you think he is a con man?
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  #7206  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2020, 5:34 AM
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Trevor Milton of Nikola is the true fraud in the EV world. Elon is by far the most successful and is doing some amazing stuff with Tesla and Space X. Why do you think he is a con man?
Pushing tunnels full of cars as a solution to urban traffic is the first thing that comes to mind. Or maybe he's simply so dense that he truly thinks that's a good idea. Either way it's sad that some gov't officials elsewhere are taking him seriously.

Pushing hyperloop over high speed rail is also dumb. And don't get me started on the autonomous vehicle snake oil he's been pushing for years.

Suffice it to say that if he actually cared about climate change he would be using his fortune on high speed rail, transit, and dense urban housing, not rockets, tunnels, and electric cars for the rich.
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  #7207  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2020, 6:30 AM
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Originally Posted by slippi View Post
Pushing tunnels full of cars as a solution to urban traffic is the first thing that comes to mind. Or maybe he's simply so dense that he truly thinks that's a good idea. Either way it's sad that some gov't officials elsewhere are taking him seriously.

Pushing hyperloop over high speed rail is also dumb. And don't get me started on the autonomous vehicle snake oil he's been pushing for years.

Suffice it to say that if he actually cared about climate change he would be using his fortune on high speed rail, transit, and dense urban housing, not rockets, tunnels, and electric cars for the rich.
Those are some good points.
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  #7208  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2020, 1:33 PM
freerover freerover is offline
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Originally Posted by The ATX View Post
Trevor Milton of Nikola is the true fraud in the EV world. Elon is by far the most successful and is doing some amazing stuff with Tesla and Space X. Why do you think he is a con man?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the...ssive-promised
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  #7209  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2020, 1:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slippi View Post
Pushing tunnels full of cars as a solution to urban traffic is the first thing that comes to mind. Or maybe he's simply so dense that he truly thinks that's a good idea. Either way it's sad that some gov't officials elsewhere are taking him seriously.

Pushing hyperloop over high speed rail is also dumb. And don't get me started on the autonomous vehicle snake oil he's been pushing for years.

Suffice it to say that if he actually cared about climate change he would be using his fortune on high speed rail, transit, and dense urban housing, not rockets, tunnels, and electric cars for the rich.
Agreed. I love EVs, space exploration and new modes of mass transit, but HAAAAAATE Elon Musk.
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  #7210  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2020, 1:47 PM
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Is it too difficult to keep the conservation to the thread's topic and not to individuals? If I wanted to read about individuals, I would not be here.
It will take at least 10 years before passengers will be riding these new trains in Austin. The voters approved a plan with light rail and rapid buses being promised, not smaller personal vehicles.
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  #7211  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2020, 1:59 PM
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Initial Implementation Schedule

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  #7212  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2020, 4:23 PM
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This is helpful to see - thanks for posting.
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  #7213  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2020, 5:38 PM
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I'm no mod, but I don't think we veered off too much from local transit related subjects. But I get it!
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  #7214  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2020, 9:37 AM
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Originally Posted by ahealy View Post
I'm no mod, but I don't think we veered off too much from local transit related subjects. But I get it!
Neither do I. Elon is all about transportation and a legitimate side bar.
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  #7215  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2020, 3:19 PM
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Neither do I. Elon is all about transportation and a legitimate side bar.
On that note, I wonder how legit the reality of Boring Co. is in Austin as ANOTHER mode of transit (in addition to Project Connect). Imagine, someday downtown just has tunnels running all over!
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  #7216  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2020, 3:12 PM
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Man I can not wait to breakdown all the planning PDFS... and to finally see transit schematics in a couple years... Really exciting stuff.
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  #7217  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2020, 4:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Mikey711MN View Post
It will take longer than just one year to proceed through the NEPA (EIS) process that this graph suggests. Just limiting it to the latest privately financed high speed rail project within Texas, the NEPA process took 5 years.
A timeline per Texas Central web site;
PROJECT TIMELINE
2026: Commercial service fully operational
2025: Testing and commissioning period begins
2021: Construction Starts
2020: Federal approvals (EIS and RPA)
September 2019: FRA begins rulemaking for safety regulations (RPA)
December 2017: DEIS is released by FRA, final route and station locations selected
June 2014: Project EIS process begins

It took them at least 3 years to process and publish the draft environmental impact study, and another 2 years to publish the final environmental study and reach the record of decision.
A total of at least 5 years for the studies - not just one year.

I do not like it when proponents and technical advisors for projects promising results no one has ever delivered, even in the most recent past. Over promising is lying, there is just no other way to look at it.

But Austin has already been doing environmental studies on these corridors in the recent past. Suppose they use the facts gathered already from the previous studies, eliminating the need to repeat the facts gathering process. They would still have write a draft study, allow six months to a year for public comments, write a final study and wait another six months for public review and comments before reaching a final record of decision. About two years at least, still more than one year in this graph.

Last edited by electricron; Nov 9, 2020 at 4:15 PM. Reason: Write a draft study, allow 6 months to a year for public comments, and write a final study
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  #7218  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2020, 5:27 PM
urbancore urbancore is offline
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Originally Posted by electricron View Post
They would still have write a draft study, allow six months to a year for public comments, write a final study and wait another six months for public review and comments before reaching a final record of decision.
Does public review/comments mean "public complaints" can slow/delay the process? Austin public is notorious for this.

Will the public have influence in the study like with Code Next?

I can hear it now. "we are moving too fast....let's take our time to get this right....why are rushing into this, the public had no idea.... this will further destroy legacy neighborhoods"

I really hope those voices are "heard" but not heeded. It's time to get on with it.
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  #7219  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2020, 6:57 PM
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Originally Posted by urbancore View Post
Does public review/comments mean "public complaints" can slow/delay the process? Austin public is notorious for this.

Will the public have influence in the study like with Code Next?

I can hear it now. "we are moving too fast....let's take our time to get this right....why are rushing into this, the public had no idea.... this will further destroy legacy neighborhoods"

I really hope those voices are "heard" but not heeded. It's time to get on with it.
The public is given time, as with other stakeholders such as Indian tribes, historic societies, and environmental activists to identify possible issues overlooked by the study researching consultants. Great consultants with history and experience in the area should have already identified everything, but there is usually somebody or some issue that is overlooked. That is why there are public comments included in the timeline.
Yes, nimbys will jump in and express opinions and ask question and their questions and issues must be answered by the study. But the answer given does not have to fix their issues they want they want.

The purpose of the EIS process is to identify environmental issues and find remediations for them, it is not to stop the transit system expansion. It takes time to identify, list, and find remedies - then get it formatted into a formal report.

Last edited by The ATX; Nov 9, 2020 at 8:19 PM. Reason: Removed political reference
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  #7220  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2020, 11:45 PM
Novacek Novacek is offline
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Originally Posted by electricron View Post
It will take longer than just one year to proceed through the NEPA (EIS) process that this graph suggests. Just limiting it to the latest privately financed high speed rail project within Texas, the NEPA process took 5 years.
A timeline per Texas Central web site;
PROJECT TIMELINE
2026: Commercial service fully operational
2025: Testing and commissioning period begins
2021: Construction Starts
2020: Federal approvals (EIS and RPA)
September 2019: FRA begins rulemaking for safety regulations (RPA)
December 2017: DEIS is released by FRA, final route and station locations selected
June 2014: Project EIS process begins

It took them at least 3 years to process and publish the draft environmental impact study, and another 2 years to publish the final environmental study and reach the record of decision.
A total of at least 5 years for the studies - not just one year.
Texas Central is a really horrible comparison. On one side we have a unique system and operating model (California HSR is the closest, but TC is private) that has never before been accomplished on America. A green field development over hundreds of miles, requiring eminent domain of hundreds(?) landowners.

On the other side, we have standard light rail, which has been successful 20-30 times in the US. Almost entirely within existing city owned RoW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by electricron View Post
I do not like it when proponents and technical advisors for projects promising results no one has ever delivered, even in the most recent past. Over promising is lying, there is just no other way to look at it.
You failing to understand what is happening does not mean that they are lying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by electricron View Post
But Austin has already been doing environmental studies on these corridors in the recent past. Suppose they use the facts gathered already from the previous studies, eliminating the need to repeat the facts gathering process. They would still have write a draft study, allow six months to a year for public comments, write a final study and wait another six months for public review and comments before reaching a final record of decision. About two years at least, still more than one year in this graph.

Not only "in the recent past". Right now.

CapMetro signed a contract for PE and NEPA with AECOM over a year and a half ago, with local money.

https://www.austinmonitor.com/storie...ring-contract/

They rolled the dice and planned for the case of the vote being successful.

They started NEPA for the Orange and Blue over a year and a half ago.

https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...idor-in-austin

Now, did they do that first step and then sit on their hands for the next 18 months, who knows? But I'm guessing not.
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