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  #41  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2009, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by 1ajs View Post
why is it the wrong side well it was a nice area befor the railway came threw
The North End didn't exist before the railway.
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  #42  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2009, 10:22 PM
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Wha??? It magically appeared?

I guess what happened was while the railway and the yards were developed the workers built their homes in the area, thus creating the "North End".
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  #43  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2009, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by grumpy old man View Post
Wha??? It magically appeared?
Well there certainly wasn't a gap between the North End and downtown with signs promising a magical futuristic snake like form of transportation to be coming soon.

And then... upon its arrival the North End became a crime infested ghetto.
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  #44  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2009, 12:54 AM
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To me, saying there are no solution is a cop out.
Reread my post. I didn't say that. And no, it is unlikely the political climate will change. Governments come and go but the festering sore called political correctness will only get worse.

I do agree with you about Toronto, it feels very safe, makes Winnipeg seem like Kandahar.
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  #45  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2009, 1:40 AM
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Then change the political climate. Get people to look past political correctness and find a solution instead of saying "I can't think of anything and I know you hate what I'm going to say so I'm just going to leave".

That's the problem with right wing people. They're always too scared to state an opinion or suggest a solution to something. They just bitch.
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  #46  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2009, 2:20 AM
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Go to Jane and Finch or anywhere in North Etobicoke, or Scarborough. See how safe you'll feel...
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  #47  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2009, 3:55 AM
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pre unicity winnipeg started in point douglas north end was a suburbs of pd downton winnipeg was residential suburb as well. when the rail way came through the comrice fallowed the push made by hbc for development resulting in portage and main and what is downtown as the industry set up shop in the older strip of downtown that is now north main
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  #48  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2009, 3:55 AM
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Then change the political climate. Get people to look past political correctness and find a solution.
Great. You've come up with a solution. Why isn't it working yet?

That's the trouble with the lefties, they say "...we have to (insert inane idea here)..." but never offer how.

Look past political correctness? How exactly?
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  #49  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2009, 3:57 AM
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Originally Posted by grumpy old man View Post
Go to Jane and Finch or anywhere in North Etobicoke, or Scarborough. See how safe you'll feel...
Etobicoke and Scarlem are not in Toronto sir. And J&F is a very small area easily avoided. I'm talking about the city proper.
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  #50  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2009, 4:06 AM
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Originally Posted by grumpy old man View Post
Go to Jane and Finch or anywhere in North Etobicoke, or Scarborough. See how safe you'll feel...
I've been to Rexdale/Thistletown (north Etobicoke); University Heights (Jane/Finch); and through Scarborough, which really is too big to generalize about, being larger than all of Winnipeg.

And in each of those areas, at any hour of the day, I feel perfectly safe.

That's not to say there isn't crime here. We weren't talking about Toronto, and I didn't say Toronto was perfect or make any unflattering comparisons with Winnipeg as a whole.

That was a Winnipeg resident (I assume) that did that.
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  #51  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2009, 4:16 AM
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Vid was on point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
Great. You've come up with a solution. Why isn't it working yet?

That's the trouble with the lefties, they say "...we have to (insert inane idea here)..." but never offer how.

Look past political correctness? How exactly?
Vid was on point.

I'm not bashing left or right here.

My problem River is that you still haven't offered a specific solution.

PC'ness may be helping to stifle a solution; that's an argument to be advanced and debated.

But PC'ness is not the cause of any problems in the north end.

Because someone is socio-economically challenged, as opposed to poor or vertically challenged as opposed to short does not a poverty-stricken or unsafe area make.

The terminology or a failure to lay blame fully and properly may be obstructing a solution......but for that to be true, you first must identify a solution, then show that there is a government body failing to deliver it; that has been made aware of what that solution might be.

Where is the solution:

What precisely should be done?

By all means hold the government of Winnipeg or of Manitoba to account if they fail to deliver an obvious solution.

But first, you must state the solution so that the government can be rightly accused of delaying or obfuscating or denying that solution's implementation.

As of yet, unless I missed it, you have not identified one law to be toughened, on tax to be cut, one social program to be limited or alternatively, one social program to be increased, one infrastructure action to be built or one school curriculum policy to be changed.

Before criticizing the gov't, whatever its stripe; or the people at large, for not delivering a solution; do enlighten us all on what the solution would be!

(I mean that with sincere respect, and anticipation)
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  #52  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2009, 4:20 AM
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how about not looking from the outside but looking from the inside and becoming apart of the community and steping up to thee plate to help deal with the problems rather then push them around
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  #53  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2009, 4:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
My problem River is that you still haven't offered a specific solution.
Please read post #38 carefully. I have no solution.

Political correctness certainly is at least partially to blame - why are sentences continually being reduced? Why are car thieves released? The "soft" approach isn't working but the courts keep getting softer.

WTF do you think "I" would have a solution? All I did was say I think it will get worse, in a logarithmic fashion. That is my opinion, nothing more.
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  #54  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2009, 4:41 AM
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Here is another case of PC gone mad.

This article hits the nail on the head. Thanks GOM.
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  #55  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2009, 5:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
Please read post #38 carefully. I have no solution.

Political correctness certainly is at least partially to blame - why are sentences continually being reduced? Why are car thieves released? The "soft" approach isn't working but the courts keep getting softer.

WTF do you think "I" would have a solution? All I did was say I think it will get worse, in a logarithmic fashion. That is my opinion, nothing more.
Then you have offered all you can offer to this discussion. You can leave now.
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  #56  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2009, 7:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
Etobicoke and Scarlem are not in Toronto sir. And J&F is a very small area easily avoided. I'm talking about the city proper.
Not to provoke an argument but yes, actually Etobicoke and Scarborough are in Toronto "city proper". At one time , no , they weren't but since then they've amalgated into a new mega-city. Technically they're just neighbourhoods now.

Anyway , let me point out that the people of the North End don't come in just one colour nor were they necessarily born a thousand or more miles away. And yes, for those who don't realize it, money by itself does not a person make. Generally speaking , people aren't criminals because they're poor , they're poor because they're criminals. That means that just because someone may not have much money , it's rather ignorant to presume they have an exposed criminal element to their behaviour. Most people (yes , this even applies in the crappiest part of the North End) are NOT criminals. Certainly the North End harbours more than its fair share but for as much as we may not want to venture into the area if given the choice , it's unfair to assume everybody in the are wants to beat and rob you.

Solutions ?

Okay , while I don't really want to turn this into some sort of Right wing /Left wing argument , the last people to have a crack at fixing society's ills would generally be categorized as left-wing. Their goal was noble but to most people it was obvious from the start that most of the hug-a-thug methods were doomed to failure from the start.
Take heart though lefties....nobody is saying that the right-wingers had any better ideas. I'm pretty sure that locking people up forever has never had the intended effect either and we tried that for centuries. Besides , I think we can all agree that most people who commit a crime aren't beyond redemption in the eyes of society.

That touches on the issue I pointed out in my last post though : You can't fix the North End without fixing society as a whole. We could raze the whole North End and redevelop it entirely and all we've really done is force the problematic demographic to take up residence in some other neighbourhood. They've got to live somewhere after all.
.........aaaaaaand this is where we start having to talk about government social policy and initiative.

We could give everybody in the North End all the money they'd ever need to live a very comfortable life and we all already know that nothing would really change. So we can try to educate as many people as we can instead. The problem with that is that education is already on the menu and we can't force anybody to learn if they don't want to.

In the last couple of decades we've heard terms like "openness" , "tolerance" , "understanding" thrown around as though they in any way address anything by themselves. Great...okay , we understand , tolerate , and are very open. Now what ?

What we should have been doing the whole time is making a point of "inviting" people to take part in their communities as productive members. It's all very adversarial right now so even if one "side" drops its guard , that doesn't make the other "side" feel obligated to reciprocate. A lot of people with these ideas of "tolerance" and "open-ness" fail to remember that most people really just don't give a crap. They aren't interested in waxing poetic about community and culture and all that. It's just not on their radar. They don't sit around trying to think of new ways to make the world a better place...they just want to get by as best they can. Convincing a gangbanger to appreciate law , order , and a peaceful society is a futile effort until he or she gets old enough to understand the benefits of these things. Forced responsibility is what it comes down to most of the time (For example , once somebody has a kid , they tend to come around to why safe streets are important)

There simply is no single solution or , for that matter , any practical number of them. Individuals have to grow at their own pace and since that's the case , we can think of the worst part of the North End as a sort of staging ground of life. It's the bottom and anybody can go there. When they decide they've had enough , they'll participate with society in a beneficial way. The door is always open for this but we can't force anybody to walk through it. As long as that door remains open , the problem , at least , won't get any worse (which , in spite of what some people think , is not getting worse) Thus , to me it makes a lot more sense to "invite" people to participate in productive ways by showing them the benefits of such a lifestyle. Right now , we have to wait for them to grow up and some people simply don't , nor are they interested in ever doing so.
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  #57  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2009, 1:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
Etobicoke and Scarlem are not in Toronto sir. And J&F is a very small area easily avoided. I'm talking about the city proper.
Actually sir, they are. Have been for quite some time now. Best check your facts first eh?

Ummm, ever actually lived in Toronto?
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  #58  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2009, 3:21 PM
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Vid, you know what you can do, no need to tell you.

Sproket, thank you very much for that elegant piece, nice that you try to inform rather than insult. I got a lot out of that. I must say though that I don't agree with your last para though - I think it's getting worse and I think it's getting bigger.

GOM, thank you for correcting me, I didn't know that. No I have not lived there, I used to travel there a lot for business in a previous life. Lately I've been going there a bunch and have fallen in love with the place and plan to move there soon when I retire.
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  #59  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2009, 3:37 PM
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GOM. Jane and finch is an intersection. an intersection only a few blocks away from a university. The only problem with jane and finch is a few run down buildings. Thats like saying go to main and redwood or redwood and salter. And yes scarborough has many public housing areas but they are all being fixed and even in some cases removed. And you can't compare toronto to winnipeg because unlike winnipeg toronto's poverty stricken neighbourhoods are scattered throughout the city while the North end is isolated and takes up a great portion of the city.
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  #60  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2009, 5:24 PM
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look you guys may agree or disagree but the north end will always be winnipeg's ghetto it's just fact. It has been that way since Winnipeg began it may be slightly better or worse in the next few years but that is about it. Many cities have large ghettos that have never really changed ie: LA, Chicago, St. Louis, Detroit, Vancouver ect.. it's just a sad part of life. Eastern Canada's major cities have such low crime rate because of such a realitivly small aboriginal population. Why is it that the crime rates are all much higher in the western canadian cities comapred to the east because unfournatley a large proportion of aborignals have been comiting crime and most live out west. I am not saying all natives are criminals but the stats have backed it up for the past what 40 years. Last year for example quebec city had I believe 0 murders while winnipeg always averages between 25- 35 murders a year. Toronto had 87 murders last year for a city of 5.5 Million people while Winnipeg at only 730,000 had what 35 murders. The problems natives incounter is a real can of worms from poor governement policy, poor native leadership and a lack of native role models to change their lives for the better will take decades.
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