Italian neighborhoods in North America

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Yet, Montreal isn't as associated with that guido/gino culture as NY/NJ, Philly, other east coast cities or Toronto. Why?

It's there, believe me.

[Capsicum]

Okay, then maybe the American subcultures (and the Toronto one for Canada) get all the attention.

If anything, Montreal is supposedly less assimilationist for Italians, so Montrealers would actually have more Italian cultural elements (slang using actual Italian words, knowledge of Italian things) to it, versus the American versions which might center around machismo, bling and working-class pride but be not specific to Italians.

After all, what are the elements that are specifically Italian about guido/gino culture if Eastern Europeans, Albanians, Greeks, Irish, Armenians, Persians, even many Hispanics, Mexicans etc. all share things like conspicuous clothing, jewellery, displays of machismo, if there's less of an actual focus of being culturally Italian or learning Italian etc.?

It seems like this contrasts with say, Chinese or Jewish culture, where being Chinese and/or Jewish makes people expect you to know about Chinese or Jewish things (eg. can read Hebrew or Chinese characters etc., know about the holidays, about their cultural history like kings and dynasties, figures of speech, proverbs etc.), and people in those communities consider "assimilated" members who have lost the cultural link very different from unassimilated members of the group.

But being Italian in the US seems to be very different. It's associated with culturally Italian things (from Italy) less than say, being Chinese or Jewish is with Chinese or Jewish things (from their homelands). People expect Jewish Americans to have visited Israel but not Italian Americans to have visited Italy. People expect Chinese Americans to read Chinese menus and know about authentic Chinese food but not Italian Americans to read Italian menus and know authentic Italian food.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

but that conflation gets trickier when you're in a heavily catholic city like chicago.

Even in Chicago, the differences between Catholic and WASP are fleeting today. 50 year ago, it was absolutely a thing.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by JManc

Even in Chicago, the differences between Catholic and WASP are fleeting today. 50 year ago, it was absolutely a thing.

except that in chicago and cities like it, the overwhelming majority of white people are not WASPs, and in no way, shape or form identify with that term, so again the conflation of "WASP" with "white american culture" is a fairly inaccurate one.

i mean, even all of my jewish-ancestry friends would now fall within "white american culture" and they sure as fuck don't identify with "WASP".

at a certain point, it's a million times better to just stick with "white american culture" and leave it at that.

the term "WASP" gets less and less meaningful with each passing year.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

except that in chicago and cities like it, the overwhelming majority of white people are not WASPs, and in no way, shape or form identify with that term, so again the conflation of "WASP" with "white american culture" is a fairly inaccurate one.

Upstate NY isn't that different from Chicago in this regard and again that made sense a few generations ago where there were noticeable differences. Like when my Italian father married my English mother. A very different time but 'white American culture' today isn't one or the other but an amalgamation of all these merging identities.

the term "WASP" gets less and less meaningful with each passing year.

I'd argue it's already meaningless.

[jpdivola]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

i'd be careful about conflating "WASP" with "white american culture"..

Yeah, at this point, WASP is more about social class than technical origin. William F Buckley, Jeb Bush, Caroline Kennedy, Justices Roberts, Kavanagh, Gorsich, Kennedy are about as WASPY as they come despite being Irish Catholic (or a convert in Bush's case). While there are lots of Anglo protestants in West Virginia who would never be described as WASPs.

Aside from Jews, Italians are probably the most distinctive White ethnic population in popular imagination (unflattering mafia/guido/hot temper sterotypes, distinctive last names, olive skin and the food/family/Catholicism culture). In practice, many if not most "Italians" are today are heavily mixed with more "generic" Northern European Americans. I don't know that Italian-Americans are as assimilated as Irish Catholics are, but lots of Italians would better fit the "white american culture" than the "italian-american culture" at this point.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by jpdivola

I don't know that Italian-Americans are as assimilated as Irish or German Catholics are

i'm trying to fix that right now

as stated earlier in the thread, i'm a northern european mutt of mostly equal parts irish and german catholic lineage (and some other minor crap), but my wife is 100% italian american. she has no known ancestor who wasn't originally from italy/sicily.

so our two kids are that much more diluted.

Originally Posted by jpdivola

but lots of Italians better fit the "white american culture" than the "italian-american culture" at this point.

for sure. my wife's blood might be as italian american as blood can get, but she was born and raised in friggin brookfield wisconsin, which is as white bread upper middle class suburban as white bread upper middle class suburbia gets.

but i've also met "the other side" of her family at a couple big family weddings. some of her grandmother's siblings and their descendants were/are legit mafia. some are currently in prison. my wife's mom married out of that world into the upper middle class, so "the other side" is nearly as foreign to my wife as it is to me.

[kcexpress69]

Columbus Park in Kansas City, just adjacent, north and east of downtown. The River Market, directly north of the downtown loop, used to be, but is much more diverse now.

[subterranean]

My father’s family are all Italians in and around metro Detroit and guido culture never had much traction in the circles I’m familiar with. Not saying it didn’t exist, just a smaller subsection of douchebaggery. Small business owners, food business owners, construction workers, stories of mob connections, ties to organized labor...these stereotypes seemed much more common and engrained in and around my family.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by jpdivola

...lots of Italians would better fit the "white american culture" than the "italian-american culture" at this point.

Yeah. We are mostly watered down Olive Garden Italians at this point. I have a Sicilian name and look Italian but that's the extent of it.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by Docere

Not even in say, Revere or Medford?

But yeah, it's interesting how Philadelphia is so closely associated with Italians and Boston isn't, even though they make up similar population shares in the two metros.

It's possible, I am a South Shore / Irish Riviera guy myself, and my family had that whole "other side of the Charles" mentality.

I mean, we had plenty of Italian-American Social Club buildings around. Basically every town had one. These were different from the Knights of Columbus halls too, even thought membership often overlapped at nearly 100%. I'd guess 1/3 of my high school graduating class had an Italian last name. But not a single stereotypical guido among them.

Now that I think about it though, there was a bit of guido culture just south of Foxboro, in towns neighboring Rhode Island. Attleboro, North Attleboro, etc. The Providence MSA parts of Massachusetts.

Funny thing too, now that I am really revisiting high school memories decades old: Portuguese guys from SE Mass and Rhode Island sometimes got all guido. Especially the spray tans and blowback cuts.

[Shawn]

The WASP label is especially funny / ironic for the Irish Catholic Boston elite. Boston was Ground Zero for true WASPs preventing Irish from getting jobs. Looks like we got the last laugh on that one!

[Docere]

Originally Posted by jpdivola

Yeah, at this point, WASP is more about social class than technical origin. William F Buckley, Jeb Bush, Caroline Kennedy, Justices Roberts, Kavanagh, Gorsich, Kennedy are about as WASPY as they come despite being Irish Catholic (or a convert in Bush's case). While there are lots of Anglo protestants in West Virginia who would never be described as WASPs.

Then there's John Kerry, the Catholic of Czech-Jewish and Boston Brahmin origin with the Irish last name.

Aside from Jews, Italians are probably the most distinctive White ethnic population in popular imagination (unflattering mafia/guido/hot temper sterotypes, distinctive last names, olive skin and the food/family/Catholicism culture). In practice, many if not most "Italians" are today are heavily mixed with more "generic" Northern European Americans. I don't know that Italian-Americans are as assimilated as Irish Catholics are, but lots of Italians would better fit the "white american culture" than the "italian-american culture" at this point.

I would agree. Some have completely melted, particularly outside the Northeast. But I do think they stand out quite a bit more than Irish Americans, of whom only a very small minority come across as "ethnic" at all.

The other thing thing is that the Irish, German, Polish, Swedish etc. distinctions pretty much disappear with intermarriage, but I get the sense that Italian culture is retained more even in mixed ancestry families.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Shawn

It's possible, I am a South Shore / Irish Riviera guy myself, and my family had that whole "other side of the Charles" mentality.

Well the Italians tended to move north from Boston, no?

[subterranean]

Italian identify is also far more nuanced and less unified than the stereotype in the average American’s mind. Italy wasn’t even unified as a country until the late 1800s. Plenty of Northern Italians are nearly as modern French and German as they are Mediterranean and many dialects/several distinct languages span the country. Hell, a lot of Italians who came to America moved back, especially during the Depression, or because they didn’t particularly like it here. That is exactly what my great grandparents did.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by Docere

Well the Italians tended to move north from Boston, no?

That's definitely true. So I'll give you this - I can't definitively say there was no guido culture in the North Shore.

I believe the majority of Italian immigrants to Boston are Sicillian too. Same case for NYC and Philly? Would have made sense, given that the economic disparities between northern and southern Italy were there back then too.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by Docere

The other thing thing is that the Irish, German, Polish, Swedish etc. distinctions pretty much disappear with intermarriage, but I get the sense that Italian culture is retained more even in mixed ancestry families.

Especially when it comes to food in mixed Irish-Italian families. For obvious reasons!

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Shawn

That's definitely true. So I'll give you this - I can't definitively say there was no guido culture in the North Shore.

I believe the majority of Italian immigrants to Boston are Sicillian too. Same case for NYC and Philly? Would have made sense, given that the economic disparities between northern and southern Italy were there back then too.

that being said, some northern italians immigrated to the U.S. as well, perhaps more of a midwestern thing, i don't know. the st. louis italian community is heavily drawn from the area around milan/lombardy. apparently that's a bit unusual upon review...

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Docere

I would agree. Some have completely melted, particularly outside the Northeast. But I do think they stand out quite a bit more than Irish Americans, of whom only a very small minority come across as "ethnic" at all.

A big reason for this is the largest influx of Irish immigrants came to the U.S. in the 1840s and 1850s. There was substantial immigration later on, but to a large extent in places like Boston where Irish identity remained strong for quite some time it was due to local Irish presence being strong enough to maintain itself for a century plus - as well as inter-ethnic marriages still being seen as slightly risque.

In contrast, Italians didn't start coming to the U.S in large numbers until the 1890s, with most coming between 1900 and 1915. Unlike most other European-American groups, they continued to migrate into the U.S. in fairly sizable numbers even after the U.S. shut its doors to mass European immigration, with another 600,000 coming in the 1950s and 1960s.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by jpdivola

Yeah, at this point, WASP is more about social class than technical origin.

Well, only to some extent. A black guy who is upper class, went to Yale and lives in a leafy Connecticut suburb with his wife and 2 kids is still not going to be labelled a WASP by most people, despite checking all the class stereotypes.

And probably not a tanned, dark-eyed guy or girl with jet-black hair and a Spanish, Portuguese, Persian, Indian or East Asian surname, no matter how preppy and posh they come across to people.