"Think Regina" CJME Poll

[Mayor Quimby]

Originally Posted by CCF

Well I don't really believe that's the best approach. You shouldn't limit the growth of a city. There are some negatives to growth, but there are certainly many positives as well.

It's obvious they should have put more emphasis on planning for the future though. Perhaps that would have helped.

Planning better is limiting growth or at least controlling it, they are synonymous.
In fast growth, long term negatives always,always, out weigh any positives. The cost born by future and long term residents is incredible via property taxes and market corrections. These are far worse then the infrastructure problems.

[IntotheWest]

Quimby, not sure what you were trying to say...the #1 goes through downtown? Are you suggesting it should?? Because it doesn't. There is a ring road being built right now - nearing completion from Deerfoot out to the west side.

What else are you trying to say? Big box stores dropped "willy-nilly"? What city doesn't have big box stores??

Try looking more central - areas like Inglewood, Marda Loop, East Village, Beltlike, and Ramsay, and look at the level of planning going into it...if you're at a loss, just flip yourself over to the Alberta forums and check out the Calgary Construction thread to get a little lesson.

Secondly, once you have some knowledge of the areas, consider the Bridges and Garrison Woods, which have been regarded as fantastic developments. Check out the work being put into TOD planning around several of the C-Trains stations. Then, take a look at the ridership, and ground covered by the C-train...which is higher than metro Vancouvers currently - a city more than twice the size.

Yes, the burbs have been designed for cars - but this is NO different in any other city that had developments through the 60s-today. Calgary's densities of the outer areas have increased, and will continue to do so. As well, the freeway layout serves the city well (take note, that the Deerfoot is controlled through the province).

As for traffic concerns, I'm not buying it. I live "all the way down" in one of the most southern Calgary burbs - the furthest point of the city from downtown...a whole 15kms. It takes me about 35 minutes in rush hour to a) go to downtown, or b) drive to the airport.

As for commuting by bike or walking - if you choose - Calgary has also built the most extensive network of pathways in North America. No city comes even close.

And I didn't fully follow your point about the bays, pedestrians, etc...not too sure what you're trying to say.

Any other points I can help debunk for you?

EDIT: Let me know when you have a list of other cities its size doing better.

[Mayor Quimby]

Originally Posted by IntotheWest

Quimby, not sure what you were trying to say...the #1 goes through downtown? Are you suggesting it should?? Because it doesn't. There is a ring road being built right now - nearing completion from Deerfoot out to the west side.

What else are you trying to say? Big box stores dropped "willy-nilly"? What city doesn't have big box stores??

Try looking more central - areas like Inglewood, Marda Loop, East Village, Beltlike, and Ramsay, and look at the level of planning going into it...if you're at a loss, just flip yourself over to the Alberta forums and check out the Calgary Construction thread to get a little lesson.

Secondly, once you have some knowledge of the areas, consider the Bridges and Garrison Woods, which have been regarded as fantastic developments. Check out the work being put into TOD planning around several of the C-Trains stations. Then, take a look at the ridership, and ground covered by the C-train...which is higher than metro Vancouvers currently - a city more than twice the size.

Yes, the burbs have been designed for cars - but this is NO different in any other city that had developments through the 60s-today. Calgary's densities of the outer areas have increased, and will continue to do so. As well, the freeway layout serves the city well (take note, that the Deerfoot is controlled through the province).

As for traffic concerns, I'm not buying it. I live "all the way down" in one of the most southern Calgary burbs - the furthest point of the city from downtown...a whole 15kms. It takes me about 35 minutes in rush hour to a) go to downtown, or b) drive to the airport.

As for commuting by bike or walking - if you choose - Calgary has also built the most extensive network of pathways in North America. No city comes even close.

And I didn't fully follow your point about the bays, pedestrians, etc...not too sure what you're trying to say.

Any other points I can help debunk for you?

EDIT: Let me know when you have a list of other cities its size doing better.

All good points but they do refer to current planning and developments. The issues that took place happened over the last 10 years,or so.

You state that #1/8th doesn't go through downtown because they are in the process of building a bypass, is it complete ? If not, then my guess that through traffic on the T-C routes via 8th.

The bays,crescents, pedestrian things is the manner of some developments that are adjacent bit only connect via a connector or arterial road meaning one would have to travel out of one area and enter the second area to visit the guy living behind his house.

[Mark Bench]

Went ot the Think Regina exhibit at the convention centre on Wednesday. It was well put together and professionally done but there was nothing that could possibly convince me to move there. Most of the exhibits seemed to be crown corporations. Cheaper housing is not a good enough reason to give up what I have in Calgary. People I work with tell me that Saskatoon is where the real action is and where it is predicted to be in the future. I wouldn't move there either but from what I have seen of both cities Saskatoon is the more appealing of the two. Sorry if anyone from Regina takes offence but that is my opinion as an outsider.

[Mayor Quimby]

Originally Posted by IntotheWest

Any other points I can help debunk for you?

Still waiting for any to be debunked.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by Mayor Quimby

Still waiting for any to be debunked.

Asleep at the wheel once again?

[Mayor Quimby]

Originally Posted by Migs

Asleep at the wheel once again?

Take a logic class. One can not rebut a statement in past tense by arguing about present or future tense.

EXAMPLE:

MIGS states, " Regina sucks "

MQ replies. " No it doesn't Waskimo used to be fun."

Did MQ really disprove MIGS ?

[IntotheWest]

^Quimby - I did debunk them...your counter points are hardly valid, or anything unique to Calgary (i.e. the burbs being segregated). Also, when you continue to point out that the TC is "8th ave", or runs through downtown, it shows your knowledge of Calgary (it's 16th by the way)...And no, the Stoney Tr isn't fully complete, but has been in progress for the last couple/few years...so has the planning to revitalize 16th Ave.

I don't want to derail this thread by turning attention to Calgary, but quite simply, when you make a blanket statement about how terrible Calgary's (or any other city) planning is, someone here will likely defend it.

Quite simply, as my points mentioned above, have a look at the Calgary Construction thread to get an idea of the level of planning going into it. For newer areas, check the Calgary.ca website for more planning/policies information.

And you're waiting for me to debunk what else? I'm still waiting for you to list another city of 1 million that is doing better (and growing the same).

As far as your comments about "limiting growth" - that's the exact ideology that would absolutely turn me off from living in a city with that mentality. Sure, Calgary will have growing pains - but you're equally going to have pains if you try and limit growth.

[Mayor Quimby]

Originally Posted by IntotheWest

^Quimby - I did debunk them...your counter points are hardly valid, or anything unique to Calgary (i.e. the burbs being segregated). Also, when you continue to point out that the TC is "8th ave", or runs through downtown, it shows your knowledge of Calgary (it's 16th by the way)...And no, the Stoney Tr isn't fully complete, but has been in progress for the last couple/few years...so has the planning to revitalize 16th Ave.

I don't want to derail this thread by turning attention to Calgary, but quite simply, when you make a blanket statement about how terrible Calgary's (or any other city) planning is, someone here will likely defend it.

Quite simply, as my points mentioned above, have a look at the Calgary Construction thread to get an idea of the level of planning going into it. For newer areas, check the Calgary.ca website for more planning/policies information.

And you're waiting for me to debunk what else? I'm still waiting for you to list another city of 1 million that is doing better (and growing the same).

As far as your comments about "limiting growth" - that's the exact ideology that would absolutely turn me off from living in a city with that mentality. Sure, Calgary will have growing pains - but you're equally going to have pains if you try and limit growth.

You didn't debunk anything except for me calling 16th , 8th. You have committed several logical fallacies, of which one is mixing you tenses. I stated that Calgary is a mess because of planning failures in the past, you countered with while they are doing something, now. You haven't debunked anything of what I said, besides mixing up streets. You can show me, all the current proposals and work being done but it doesn't address the issues over the last 5 years or more. The current approach should have been completed years ago, now it will cost more due to the lack of a cohesive plan.

Limiting growth or planning, is essential to ensure that property values continue to increase at stable levels and that homeowners are not over taxed due to ill advised developments. How much are you going to like living in a city were you never know if you can buy or sell a house to to the ups and downs or rapidly increasing property taxes, to keep up with the infrastructure.

Facts are facts and Calgary is developing at an unsustainable pace. The bubble is going to burst sooner then later. When you price more then 50% of your population out of a housing market, it can't sustain itself. No amount of planning now, or in future, will prevent this event.

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by Mayor Quimby

You didn't debunk anything except for me calling 16th , 8th. You have committed several logical fallacies, of which one is mixing you tenses. I stated that Calgary is a mess because of planning failures in the past, you countered with while they are doing something, now. You haven't debunked anything of what I said, besides mixing up streets. You can show me, all the current proposals and work being done but it doesn't address the issues over the last 5 years or more. The current approach should have been completed years ago, now it will cost more due to the lack of a cohesive plan.

Limiting growth or planning, is essential to ensure that property values continue to increase at stable levels and that homeowners are not over taxed due to ill advised developments. How much are you going to like living in a city were you never know if you can buy or sell a house to to the ups and downs or rapidly increasing property taxes, to keep up with the infrastructure.

Facts are facts and Calgary is developing at an unsustainable pace. The bubble is going to burst sooner then later. When you price more then 50% of your population out of a housing market, it can't sustain itself. No amount of planning now, or in future, will prevent this event.

I couldn't agree with you more... Calgary is completely tied to a couple commodities. One has dropped and the other will following, as the US economy drops.. we will see a replay of the 1980's where people could leave fast enough. Families lost all there savings trying to sustain payments on houses which were mispriced due to a shortterm bubble.

I am living in Calgary and talk to people in the oil sector on a regular basis .. its a very tense time in cowtown and some are pulling out there parachutes before the whole thing comes crashing down.

[IntotheWest]

Originally Posted by Mayor Quimby

You didn't debunk anything except for me calling 16th , 8th. You have committed several logical fallacies, of which one is mixing you tenses. I stated that Calgary is a mess because of planning failures in the past, you countered with while they are doing something, now. You haven't debunked anything of what I said, besides mixing up streets. You can show me, all the current proposals and work being done but it doesn't address the issues over the last 5 years or more. The current approach should have been completed years ago, now it will cost more due to the lack of a cohesive plan.

Limiting growth or planning, is essential to ensure that property values continue to increase at stable levels and that homeowners are not over taxed due to ill advised developments. How much are you going to like living in a city were you never know if you can buy or sell a house to to the ups and downs or rapidly increasing property taxes, to keep up with the infrastructure.

Facts are facts and Calgary is developing at an unsustainable pace. The bubble is going to burst sooner then later. When you price more then 50% of your population out of a housing market, it can't sustain itself. No amount of planning now, or in future, will prevent this event.

Well, I guess what you haven't really proven is how it's a "mess" - regardless if its from 5, 10, or 20 years ago. Instead, you try to turn your poor examples back into an argument. Given the projected growth of the city, they have (had) done most of what they could...you obviously miss that. The city has grown far quicker than what they originally anticipated....now expected to top 1.25 million in the next 10 years (versus 20).

The fact that you mix 8th with 16th - or that the TC goes through downtown - just demonstrated your knowledge of the city anyway.

Pricing "more than 50%" of the population out of a housing market? Are you serious? Where did you read this from?? Lifestyles will change, what people expect for a "home" - and the styles of their homes - will also change. Just as they have in Vancouver or Toronto. No different...and again, if you took some time to see what was going on in Calgary, you might actually show that you have some idea what you are talking about.

However, you've failed to provide any real example of why its a "mess" (other than your perceived notion that the TC running through the city makes the whole city a mess, "big box" store areas, and segregated burbs), or any other example of what city would be used as a better model.

Where, I've given some concrete examples of how it isn't a mess (yet) - both present and past tense (C-Train, pathways, etc).

Newflyer - the biggest downfall in the 80's was NEP. Everyone in Calgary is still playing this "boom" cautiously, and even at that it is building at a frantic pace to keep up (example: look what its taken to finally get some new office space being built). Calgary is a much different city than it was in the 80s.

[newflyer]

Newflyer - the biggest downfall in the 80's was NEP. Everyone in Calgary is still playing this "boom" cautiously, and even at that it is building at a frantic pace to keep up (example: look what its taken to finally get some new office space being built). Calgary is a much different city than it was in the 80s.

While the NEP was blamed for the collapse.. the fact is the global price of oil collapsed and Calgary's economy could not cover the loss of this significant industry. There were construction sites which were halted .. thousands of unwanted houses left in the hands of banks, which were resold at a fraction of there previous values.

Calgary has allowed the oil industry to once again dominate the local economy.. and now its come to a critical point, where the levels of energy investment is slowly drying up, but the levels of real estate speculation is still running fast and hard. Opus is now constructing buildings before locking in significant leases, and then leasing them as they go, as a means to maximize profits.

There is now a long line of smaller energy companies who are now locked into expensive leases, who are getting desparate, because revenues have taken a big hit since last summer.. and expenses are flying through the roof. The fact is Calgary's hot economy has pushed up local inflationary pressures( as indicated by surpassing the NAIRU levels), while revenues have declined. Add to this the newly created pollution taxes and the elimintion of the very favorable tax shelter for energy trust companies and you have a very problematic situation for the oil dependant economy of Calgary.

Things are looking very similar to the 1980's for Calgary, including the soon to be annouced US recession and a sizable decline of oil prices. Anyone who bought a house during this bubble will be paying for it bigtime... can't say I didn't warn them.

Its going to be ugly.

[newflyer]

Where, I've given some concrete examples of how it isn't a mess (yet) - both present and past tense (C-Train, pathways, etc).

From an economic point of view the worst time to ring up massive public expenditures is during point of high local inflation.

The fact that there is suddenly a massive amount of annouced public investment in infrastructure, while the labour market is extremely tight, would show there was no planning of any type leading up this this population growth.

I grant you that nobody foresaw the hurricane which set off a massive run in oil revenues... and is now is so tied to private equity that there is a very real liquidy problem in the futures market.

The truth is had Calgary and Alberta built up some of its infrastructure before the near lockup it would be in a much stronger position to maximize the potencial created by the recent record high energy prices. But now instread of utilizing its labour capacity to maximize the petroeum and thus commercial real estate lotto winfall, it is forced to drive up costs on the same companies, in order to build schools, hospitals and correct the horribly planned roadway system. By driving up the costs for the local oil companies, many smaller ones are now priced out of the market.

This is very poor planning. Fix the damn roadways when the economy is not red hot!!! .. DON'T WAIT UNTIL ITS TOO LATE.. and then have the mayor cry on a continious basis he doesn't have the funds to fix the mess.

Calgary was laid out to be a much smaller city and now it is facing huge problems trying to deal with this economic bubble, which it is trying by mass producing even more low density housing and retail. This city is one massive sprawling cookie cutter town .. I realize this works fine in smaller cities like Lethbridge or even Regina, but hasn't anyone at cityplanning been to a bigger city. Maybe they should send the department to places like Vancouver, Chicago, Toronto, Minniapolis, Montreal.. ect ect .. just so they can get out of there small city thinking. There comes a time when low density development doesn't cut it anymore.

Its killing the city and will result in further long term problems, which will be extremely expensive to correct down the road. Sadly Calgarians have to get over the fact that if they live in a city of a million people, they can't expect to have the same lifestyle of a city of 179,000.

[yeeg]

Originally Posted by newflyer

Sadly Calgarians have to get over the fact that if they live in a city of a million people, they can't expect to have the same lifestyle of a city of 179,000.

Thats strange, my lifestyle in Calgary is far greater than what it would have been in Regina..I must be an anomaly along with 7 friends I can think of...Come to think of it, the people I play football with who are from Regina / Saskatchewan all say the same thing...We must be special...

[IntotheWest]

Newflyer - it's obvious from your posts that you really don't like Calgary. But, I disagree its in a big "mess". I do agree its going through a transition from a small city to a large city, but it is coping well. What roadways do you think are a problem? The freeways? The burbs? What specifically? Name something - not just general "mess" comments.

As far as sprawl, if you've paid any attention lately, you'd notice this transformation in its built form and future planning...the multitude of condo towers in the core, the building up of areas around the core (Bridges, Garrison, Ramsay, etc), the planning around TODs (i.e. Anderson), and the future suburbs being planned (such as the new one between 196th and 212th SE). The city has also been tightening its building policies for said burbs over the years, and as single-family lots are much smaller, and multifamily homes are more abundant. The 20-year master plans for the city have been done for the last couple decades (at least), and are available on calgary.ca...have a look.

As far as comparing to Calgary now to the 80's, well, I guess you have a special perspective of it. Calgary is more diverse business-wise (granted, overshadowed by energy sector), and its size will act as a catalyst to attract more.

Do you firmly believe you're insight is better than the other analysts, developers (building on spec by the way), and companies relocating/growing/starting-up here in seeing the bubble burst?

Anyway - this has gotten way off topic. I just don't like reading blanket statements that can't be backed up.

[newflyer]

Newflyer - it's obvious from your posts that you really don't like Calgary. But, I disagree its in a big "mess". I do agree its going through a transition from a small city to a large city, but it is coping well. What roadways do you think are a problem? The freeways? The burbs? What specifically? Name something - not just general "mess" comments.

Okay .. Glenmore is currently going through what I consider a massive revamp, but as we currenly speak it is a giant/massive/huge mess.

Deer Foot is running way over capacity... and is one of the danerous roadways in the country. MESS

The current planning which restrains comercial development mostly to power centre locations, causing significant congestion is very poor city design.

The brain fart between Crowchild and 14th .... anybody with half a brain would have realign that mess decades ago.

The rapid growth of low density housing subdivisions has put an amazing amount of strain on many arteries leading into downtown.

The strange concept of having excessive number of streets without anyform of development only drives more sprawl and encourages a minimal density.

For the record I don't hate Calgary... but refuse to buy into the paradise oasis theory promoted by the some. I try to be a realist.

[newflyer]

As far as comparing to Calgary now to the 80's, well, I guess you have a special perspective of it. Calgary is more diverse business-wise (granted, overshadowed by energy sector), and its size will act as a catalyst to attract more.

Do you firmly believe you're insight is better than the other analysts, developers (building on spec by the way), and companies relocating/growing/starting-up here in seeing the bubble burst?

Nope... I base my views on energy analysts. Developers are often guided more by short-term profit and less by mid to long term projections. Just as they did in the 80's.

[newflyer]

As far as comparing to Calgary now to the 80's, well, I guess you have a special perspective of it. Calgary is more diverse business-wise (granted, overshadowed by energy sector), and its size will act as a catalyst to attract more.

Hopefully your special perspective of the 80's includes how oil plumeted down to $11.58 in 1986... or did you selectively forget that fact.

Calgary's economy is not much more diverse than it was then. Its still completely reliant on oil, natural gas, and energy service companies to drive the economy. Then again there is a large construction industry ... ohh wait they are building towers for the oil companies. Hey.. well how about the steel and pipe mill ... oh yeah that oil thing again. Well we have a strong retail sector ... that can't be related to the rich oil sector can it??

Well your theory is a nice feel good thought... needless to say it holds little basis in reality. Oil is cyclical, has always been cyclical and will always be cyclical ... Calgary is based on this cycle. Just as $80 dollar oil made Calgary the boom city of Canada the last couple years ... the bust will see it fall just as fast if not faster. Its the reality of living in Calgary and all the best wishing won't change this fact.

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by yeeg

Thats strange, my lifestyle in Calgary is far greater than what it would have been in Regina..I must be an anomaly along with 7 friends I can think of...Come to think of it, the people I play football with who are from Regina / Saskatchewan all say the same thing...We must be special...

I was refering to the residental and commercial planning .. not your level of income. Calgary needs to show some sense of knowing the difference between city planning of a small city and one who wants to be a big city. The amount of low quality, low density sprawl is really making Calgary a big mess.

[IntotheWest]

Originally Posted by newflyer

Okay .. Glenmore is currently going through what I consider a massive revamp, but as we currenly speak it is a giant/massive/huge mess.

Deer Foot is running way over capacity... and is one of the danerous roadways in the country. MESS

The current planning which restrains comercial development mostly to power centre locations, causing significant congestion is very poor city design.

The brain fart between Crowchild and 14th .... anybody with half a brain would have realign that mess decades ago.

The rapid growth of low density housing subdivisions has put an amazing amount of strain on many arteries leading into downtown.

The strange concept of having excessive number of streets without anyform of development only drives more sprawl and encourages a minimal density.

For the record I don't hate Calgary... but refuse to buy into the paradise oasis theory promoted by the some. I try to be a realist.

Okay - this will be my last post in this thread, on this subject...since we are so far off topic.

You've pointed out very specific infrastructure "issues", and while I agree that Glenmore should have been handled years ago, I don't think it makes the city at-large a mess.

The Deerfoot is funded by the prov government - so not a city planning issue. However, since 2000, they've a) extended it far south to Okotoks to free traffic on McLeod, and b) removed all traffic lights with interchanges (at least five or six have been added).

Not sure I get your comment about excessive streets, but the city has tightened their development policies over the years - and the newest burb (as I mentioned earlier) going south of 196th should really start showing a proper design/mix of retail and res. As well, you know of all the developments around downtown and the C-train stations (and the planning going into those areas)...all of these will give the estimated 300k people moving to Calgary more options for living instead of the typical burb.

Just so I don't come off as completely ignorant of issues, policies, and planning ideologies that need to change in Calgary, I'd have to say that the continued expansion of roadways (McLeod, Deerfoot), new freeways (Stoney Tr), are the biggest reason for sprawl getting further out the last 20 years. Calgary has had far more freeways than a city this size ever needed...and it appears to continue wanting to add more. Bad move. If a city like Regina ever grows to Calgary's current size (and maybe they should plan that it will??), it should make the same desicion Vancouver made 20 years ago, and restrict building more freeways. It's definitely helped them (never mind the complaints from Maple Ridge commuters :-)

The zoning for TODs is also something that should have been figured out quicker. Even the new condos going up around Anderson and McLeod right now have to overlook three brand new car dealerships right on the corner...who approved that in what could eventually become a TOD?

However, all-in-all, I think Calgary has still done a good job - especially in the core areas.

Newflyer - as far as diversity, I fully agree that oil drives the economy...but these are also "energy" companies, and given we'll always need energy, I guess part of the hope is that they themselves are diversifying their interests in the future of power (of course, I would not expect all - or even most?). Aside from that though, Calgary has become the regions transportation and warehousing centre. It also has a strong IT/tech industry (that's what I'm in). And, I think as Calgary gets larger, these (what would be more "niche" industry in a smaller center) industries will also grow enough to be a pull for Calgary. Yes, if oil went away altogether, Calgary would drastically change...quickly. But, this isn't going to happen...it can't. The world is far too dependant on oil - at least for the next 20 years (and likely more). And as long as oil doesn't drop below $25/barrel, the industry will keep plugging away at the oil sands (and that cost gets lower all the time).

By the way - NEP dropped the price of oil (to Alberta) instantly, that's what triggered the end of the boom. Not sure a real figure has been calculated, but something like $90-150 billion lost is what I've read. However, yes, the drop in world prices continued it.

Okay - so that's all I can write about this here...back to Think Regina