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Old Posted Apr 18, 2007, 3:18 PM
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St. Louis Like Winnipeg?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/17/us...&ex=1177041600

Hopes for a Renaissance After Exodus in St. Louis

By SUSAN SAULNY
Published: April 17, 2007

ST. LOUIS — Cities, like most living things, have sensitive spots. Here in the old “Gateway to the West,” the subject of population loss is one of the touchiest.


On the north side of St. Louis, near the Mississippi River, abandoned and rotting buildings are symbols of the city’s population loss.

From a peak of nearly 860,000 residents in 1950, St. Louis had lost more than half a million people by 2000, a depopulation not unlike the devastating postwar exodus from Detroit. Since the 2000 census, St. Louis has kept shrinking, the Census Bureau estimates, while most old cities have added people.

Population is a critical indicator of any city’s health, but the sinking numbers here are particularly unwelcome as the city has spiraled from one woe to the next.

In the past few months, the public schools were stripped of accreditation and taken over by the state; the city was designated the most dangerous in the country in a national crime survey; and 15 police officers and supervisors were disciplined for giving World Series tickets seized from scalpers to friends and family.

“These things are absolutely not helpful,” said John Haul, an assistant professor of architecture at Washington University who has been involved in numerous municipal planning projects. “We have to redevelop the city regardless; this just makes it harder.”

City officials question the accuracy of the census calculations and suggest the city has turned the corner. Their optimism is based on a flurry of downtown development since 2000, including hundreds of loft condominiums, boutiques and restaurants.

“We’re actually doing very well,” said Rollin B. Stanley, director of the city’s planning and urban design agency, which puts the population at 354,000, about 6,000 higher than the Census Bureau.

But the effort to put a positive spin on the population debate — and with it, the hope for a long-awaited renaissance — comes against a difficult backdrop.

In March, the Missouri State Board of Education took over the public schools for consistently poor performance. Teachers and parents, who largely opposed the takeover, said the district had been starved for resources to care for some of the neediest students in the country.

“Without financial and human resources, we’re set up to fail,” said Chip Clatto, an assistant principal at a school on the north side. “I’m wondering if people on the outside realize that not only are we trying to educate these kids, we’re trying to turn them into citizens when their society has failed them.”

Signs of a looming disaster for the district of 35,000 students, mostly poor and black, had been clear for years. In 2004, a national education advocacy group found that only 5 percent of 11th graders in city schools were proficient in reading.

“They’ve had a revolving door in and out of the superintendent’s office for some time,” said Michael Casserly, the executive director of the group, Great City Schools. “They’ve had a lot of turmoil, and it’s made it almost impossible for the system to gain any momentum.”

In October, St. Louis was identified as “America’s most dangerous city” by a private research firm that publishes an annual crime ranking. Though city officials and some experts criticized the ranking as simplistic, aggravated assaults with guns, considered one of the best gauges of a city’s level of violence, were up more than 30 percent over the past two years, according to the Police Executive Research Forum.

“A few people are responsible for most of the crime, and we’re targeting those people,” said Barbara A. Geisman, the city’s director of development. “The vast majority of St. Louis is as safe as any place in the suburbs.”

But recently there was more bad news from law enforcement in the case of the World Series tickets. One of the best moments of civic pride in recent years — the Cardinals’ victory last fall — was tainted. Chief Joe Mokwa recommended that 8 of the 15 officers be suspended for two weeks and be reduced in rank for a minimum of one year.

“They’re not thieves,” Mr. Mokwa said when announcing the punishment. “They made a mistake.”

Even the weather got the better of the city last summer, when a storm knocked out power to hundreds of thousands of customers for more than a week. Tempers flared as the power company was unable to restore service quickly, with utility workers from as far away as Arizona ultimately enlisted to help.

Rebuilding, and rebranding, St. Louis when some basic quality of life indicators point in the wrong direction has not been easy. And while the city’s population has shrunk, its sprawling suburbs have grown. The metropolitan area’s population is more than 2.6 million.

“This is a city that at one point was the fourth largest in the United States,” said Richard B. Rosenfeld, a professor of criminology at the University of Missouri, St. Louis. “The distance we’ve fallen from the status of being a major national city does affect St. Louisans.”

The city has retained attractions like Forest Park, excellent universities and a vibrant arts scene. But vast sections of North St. Louis show what happens when people leave town in big numbers: What is left is a shell of a city, boarded up, rotting, populated by the most impoverished. Residents, mostly black, are still fleeing these parts of town.


Chip Clatto is an assistant principal at a north side school.

For years, experts said, as the population dwindled, there was no sense of urgency about how the city could come back. Now there is. Last year, for instance, the city developed a new land use plan for the first time since 1947. And a state tax credit program has been spurring investment in some forgotten parts of the city.

Some neighborhoods, like Lafayette Park, are even thriving.

Since 1999, according to the Downtown St. Louis Partnership, a civic group, 62 historic buildings have been redeveloped for residences and businesses, 12 are currently being remodeled and about 20 conversions are in the planning stages. And according to the city, the two-square-mile downtown area has over 9,000 residents — 6,300 more than in 2000.

“There’s a young middle-class movement beginning,” said James Neal Primm, a retired professor and author of “Lion of the Valley,” an extensive history of St. Louis. “My overall reaction is that there should be a lot more. But there is something going on.”

Dr. Primm’s grandson, Chris Termini, 29, lives in one of the new downtown lofts, in an area that was unfit for comfortable living just 10 years ago. At night, the sidewalk cafes are full. Joggers pass; dog walkers idle.

“We walk everywhere for food and entertainment,” Mr. Termini said. “It’s great.”

Mr. Stanley, the city planner, had all this in mind when he challenged the Census Bureau’s 2003 population estimate. St. Louis won that dispute, successfully arguing that it did not lose 17,000 people between 2000 and 2003 — rather 50. “That’s five-zero,” said Mr. Stanley, a Canadian by birth with great love for St. Louis.

This year, he said he had a feeling that the bureau would say St. Louis was down again. And it did, giving the city an estimated population of 347,180 — slightly less than the 2000 population count of 348,200.

That is just plain wrong, Mr. Stanley said, adding that his challenge of the estimate is ready to go.

Win or lose, officials will probably not know with any certainty who lives in St. Louis until the next national count, in 2010, because interim figures are based on less accurate estimates.

“We have to wait,” Professor Rosenfeld said. “I think it’s clear that the rate of decline we’ve seen through the last decades is not going to continue. The question is whether we’ll see a net increase.”

He added, “Sensitive subject.”
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  #2  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2007, 3:23 PM
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We do share some woes....
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  #3  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2007, 3:39 PM
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does anyone have stats showing the percentage of population change in the core areas of Winnipeg?

Somehow I doubt it's anywhere close to the level of St. Louis...
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Old Posted Apr 18, 2007, 3:49 PM
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St Louis, Detroit, Cleveland, and Buffalo have seen catastrophic population declines in their city limits; way beyond that experienced by any Canadian cities.
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Old Posted Apr 18, 2007, 4:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drew View Post
does anyone have stats showing the percentage of population change in the core areas of Winnipeg?

Somehow I doubt it's anywhere close to the level of St. Louis...
One could find out by tallying up population figures of each pre-Unicity neighborhood at http://www.winnipeg.ca/census/2001/.

Just a few examples:
William Whyte,(in the North End) went from 10,005 persons in 1971, to 5,745 in 2001 -42.6%
North Point Douglas went from 4,210 in 1971, to 2,260 in 2001 -46.3%
McMillan (north of Corydon) went from 5,735 in 1971, to 3,540 in 2001 -38.3%
Daniel McIntyre (in the West End) went from 11,505 in 9,725 in 2001 -15.5%
Logan-CPR went from 1,245 in 1971, to 300 in 2001 -75.9%
Crescentwood went from 3,840 in 1971 to 2,735 in 2001 -28.8%
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Old Posted Apr 18, 2007, 5:14 PM
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Crescentwood isn't a poor inner-city area. I lived there for my first 9 years. There were four of us in the family by '71.

The size of family have been decreasing after 1964.
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  #7  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2007, 6:30 PM
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half a million people left the city in 50 years!!? Holy crap. Half of the city must be abandoned buildings
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Old Posted Apr 18, 2007, 8:32 PM
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there are areas in 'peg that have lost population, but that article is about the whole city of St.Louis losing population. Winnipeg has not lost any population, it has always grown slightly, but an interesting article.
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  #9  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2007, 8:54 PM
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^ yes but unlike St. Louis, Winnipeg amalgamated with it's suburbs. So any population loss in one area is offset by gains elsewhere...

If that wasn't the case, the "old" city of Winnipeg would have shown a substantial population decline, while the suburbs (metropolitan area) would have steadily grown - much like St. Louis.

I am not sure if that made any sense... I need a nap.
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Old Posted Apr 18, 2007, 9:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drew View Post
^ yes but unlike St. Louis, Winnipeg amalgamated with it's suburbs. So any population loss in one area is offset by gains elsewhere...

If that wasn't the case, the "old" city of Winnipeg would have shown a substantial population decline, while the suburbs (metropolitan area) would have steadily grown - much like St. Louis.

I am not sure if that made any sense... I need a nap.
Precisely.
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  #11  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2007, 9:40 PM
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Interesting,

Winnipeg used to be Canada's 3rd biggest city,

St. Louis used to be the US's 4th largest city,

now both are no where near that scale.
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Old Posted Apr 18, 2007, 10:05 PM
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Some more random neighborhood population figures:
River-Osborne had 5,465 in 1971, and 4,715 in 2001-- -13.7%
Glenelm (Elmwood west of Henderson) had 3,320 in 1971 and 2,255 in 2001-- -30.1%
Spence had 6,230 in in 1971, and 3,750 in 2001-- -39.9%
Centennial had 3,510 in 1971, and 2,385 in 2001-- -32.1%
Dufferin (North End between Dufferin and Selkirk Aves) had 3,280 in 1971, and 1,755 in 2001-- -46.5%
Wolseley had 11,995 in 1971, and 7,830 in 2001-- -34.7%
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Old Posted Apr 18, 2007, 10:13 PM
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Amalgamation certainly helped Winnipeg not look as bad, but I'm not exactly seeing the 60% figure that STL lost. Saint Louis donuted into suburbia hell. For Winnipeg to claim Saint Louis or Detroit as poor-down-on-the-luck brother, Winnipeg's population would have dropped from 500,000 to about 200,000. STL (city, not metro) reached a population of 850,000 in the early 1950s, and last year they announced the first gain in population for the city in 50 years. The population is now a staggering (and I mean the drunk kind) 357,000. The scale of burned out areas and decay is unreal. There's lots of good going on now, but it's a serious catch up game. It will take another fifty years of decent population gains to reclaim back many areas as liveable. The school board black eye is hopefully a blip on the recovery road as more condo conversions and new construction hits Saint Louis.

I've lived in both cities and I see a lot of similarities, early transportation hub of each respective country. Great turn of the century warehouse architecture. A bit of French influence. A little tough, a little gritty, a lot of character and can be a great place if you give them a chance.

Saint Louis's historical population graph (from Wikipedia):
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Old Posted Apr 18, 2007, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgalston View Post
Some more random neighborhood population figures:

Wolseley had 11,995 in 1971, and 7,830 in 2001-- -34.7%
These stats are interesting.

Wolesley as a neighbourhood I would imagine has remained almost completely intact/dense - certainly compared to 1971. Yet it has lost population.

I wonder if the numbers (for Wolesley anyway) point more to smaller households and a decline in rental/rooming houses as property values increased - more than a general exodus to the burbs...
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Old Posted Apr 19, 2007, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drew View Post
These stats are interesting.

Wolesley as a neighbourhood I would imagine has remained almost completely intact/dense - certainly compared to 1971. Yet it has lost population.

I wonder if the numbers (for Wolesley anyway) point more to smaller households and a decline in rental/rooming houses as property values increased - more than a general exodus to the burbs...
if you look more closely at the population distribution since 1971, you can see that this lower density was a city wide trend...even wealthy neighbourhoods such as silver heights, river heights and tuxedo have lower populations than they did in 1971....this does not indicate any level of abandonment in those neighbourhoods....there are simply fewer people living in each house today as a result of lower birth rates and the baby boomers moving through the system.

wolsely and osborne are prime examples...how can there be fewer people in those neighbourhoods when there are far more residential units today than there was then.

all in all, there is no comparing the exodus of st. louis to the patterns of development in winnipeg....all of those neighbourhoods RG listed account for about 20 000 people....you could take the data from st. james and fort garry and find the same results....i suspect you could find the same in many cities.

one good thing is that in many of these central neighbourhoods, the population grew between 1996 and 2001 and has continued to do so since.
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Old Posted Apr 19, 2007, 5:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drew View Post
These stats are interesting.

Wolesley as a neighbourhood I would imagine has remained almost completely intact/dense - certainly compared to 1971. Yet it has lost population.

I wonder if the numbers (for Wolesley anyway) point more to smaller households and a decline in rental/rooming houses as property values increased - more than a general exodus to the burbs...

Yes. I think that's the case for more than just Wolseley, too. On that note, there's a curious thing about gentrification--it tends to lower population densities for exactly the reason you mentioned. In Wolseley's case, I'd chalk it up to decreasing household sizes. In apartments this trend is especially dramatic, since small, young families with three people used to typically live in two bedroom apartments where two roommates do now. I don't find this kind of 'depopulation' terribly troubling.

There was a thread not long ago comparing Winnipeg to Detroit. It's an absurd comparison--a cursory glance at google maps confirms that. The same applies to St. Louis. Take a look on google maps, at Detroit or STL, note the blocks of urban prairie where countless buildings have been destroyed, and I defy anyone to find something similar in Winnipeg. To save you time, I can tell you there isn't. Winnipeg's city neighborhoods, as far as these things go, are relatively intact.
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Old Posted Apr 19, 2007, 1:19 PM
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Yes. I think that's the case for more than just Wolseley, too. On that note, there's a curious thing about gentrification--it tends to lower population densities for exactly the reason you mentioned.
Strangely, yet, the Spence neighborhood lost a significant number of the the 111 rooming houses it had in 1999--which became single-family dwellings--while that neighborhood's population famously increased by 12% according to the 2006 census.

Another thing about gentification (and it would be particularly curious to Winnipeggers) is that the increased property values in gentrifying urban neighborhoods tend to lead to higher density residential buildings. While I wouldn't call it "gentrification", the rising property values here in North Point Douglas are now making non-profit housing groups move away from the conventional single-family, detached house on a residential street for low-to-moderate income families, in favor of multi-family dwellings. In the 1990's, when the North End was worthless, it was feasable for non-profits to put one family on a 25x100 lot; now they're looking at putting three on a lot that size. There is a move toward looking at converting non-residential buildings, even mixed-use buildings on Main Street.


I wasn't saying that the old City of Winnipeg's post-war depopulation was comparable to St. Louis or Detroit, or that modest population declines are cause for alarm (after all, a family of ten lived in my house in 1905, where my family of three lives today), but when you look at the de-population of downtown neighborhoods like South Portage, South Point Douglas, Logan-CPR, and Lord Selkirk Park; or the near abandonment of mixed-use apartments on commercial streets, it's obvious that Winnipeg's post-war years have not been entirely rosey.

Last edited by rgalston; Apr 19, 2007 at 1:25 PM.
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Old Posted Apr 19, 2007, 2:28 PM
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I think population decline also happens to a limited degree because of increased wealth. People are able to afford more space and more personal space, in addition to demographic factors. So my textbooks tell me anyways.
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Old Posted Apr 27, 2007, 10:25 PM
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The parallel seems reasonable though I've never been to either city, and Winnipeg hasn't declined that much.
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Old Posted Apr 28, 2007, 10:53 PM
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St. Louis looks better then Winnipeg IMHO:




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