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  #121  
Old Posted May 18, 2020, 3:33 AM
liat91 liat91 is offline
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Originally Posted by goat314 View Post
Yes it was. To discount that is disingenuous and ahistorical. America was just as much of a slave colony as any place in the Caribbean or Latin America. For much of it's history Cotton was our biggest export and created great wealth for the country that would have not been there otherwise. Wall St. was literally a slave market and much of the funding for factories in the United States and Europe were funded by the proceeds of slavery.
I second this. Immigration just padded the pigs belly. The only other major event that contributed to our strength came after we had already achieved world power status. That was WW2, and it ascended us to a super power.

Btw, immigration to wealthy nations does NOT lower birth rates of sending countries. Indonesia has much less emigrants to wealthy nations as the Philippines and has a much lower fertility rate.

Global population growth will end within 50 years. If the West wishes to prevail, it will learn how to grow sustainably before the rest of the world.

If I’m not mistaken, this nations best times happened outside of periods of mass slavery and immigration. If you mention the 2000’s, I’ll mention 2008.
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  #122  
Old Posted May 18, 2020, 9:59 AM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by liat91 View Post
Btw, immigration to wealthy nations does NOT lower birth rates of sending countries.
Read the previous posts. Immigration to wealthy nations reduces overall birthrates, obviously. The migrating families produce fewer children than if they hadn't immigrated.
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Originally Posted by liat91 View Post
Global population growth will end within 50 years. If the West wishes to prevail, it will learn how to grow sustainably before the rest of the world.
Again, read the previous posts. We aren't talking about the "West", but the U.S. The U.S. can dictate its relative population growth for centuries, as long as it remains the most attractive destination, even if overall global population plummets.
     
     
  #123  
Old Posted May 18, 2020, 2:16 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Yes it was. To discount that is disingenuous and ahistorical. America was just as much of a slave colony as any place in the Caribbean or Latin America. For much of it's history Cotton was our biggest export and created great wealth for the country that would have not been there otherwise. Wall St. was literally a slave market and much of the funding for factories in the United States and Europe were funded by the proceeds of slavery.
Yeah, not to mention the financial institutions and insurance companies that had direct financial benefit from the slave trade. Some of those companies that insured slaves or provided financing to slave plantations exist today. And, obviously, many of the educational institutions that benefited from slave labor, as well as the largesse of rich slave owners, still exist.
     
     
  #124  
Old Posted May 19, 2020, 12:36 AM
liat91 liat91 is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Read the previous posts. Immigration to wealthy nations reduces overall birthrates, obviously. The migrating families produce fewer children than if they hadn't immigrated.

Again, read the previous posts. We aren't talking about the "West", but the U.S. The U.S. can dictate its relative population growth for centuries, as long as it remains the most attractive destination, even if overall global population plummets.
Posts seemed to mention rich countries in Europe as well.

First generation immigrants tend to mirror the rates in the old countries. That, I know for a fact. Maybe your just assuming, because the overall rates for all people of entire ethnic groups in the US regardless of how many generations they’ve been here for.

And no we won’t be the shining nation on the hill for centuries, going forward. All you have to do is look at modern immigration rates from Europe, for that reality. Unless you think only Japan and Europe have the ability to improve their lot. Even in 2050, the only places on the planet with potential for high emigration will be sub-Saharan Africa and India, and by that time automation will be in full effect.

In 2100, our population will be what it is now and the global economy will be 3 times as large at least. We will be almost completely automated by then. Africa will be where Southeast Asia is now and India will be like South America at worst.
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Last edited by liat91; May 19, 2020 at 12:51 AM.
     
     
  #125  
Old Posted May 19, 2020, 11:14 PM
JoeMusashi JoeMusashi is offline
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Originally Posted by goat314 View Post
The foundation of America's economy was built on slave labor not immigration. Mass immigration from Europe and elsewhere came primarily after America had already become a prosperous slave colony.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/...edward-baptist
You still need actual immigrants to bring capital and numbers to develop a plantation economy. Slavery couldn't have thrived or existed in this country without immigrants or pioneering settlers. It wasn't like everyone in the country was a slave or slaveowner either, even in the Antebellum South.
     
     
  #126  
Old Posted May 20, 2020, 3:47 AM
liat91 liat91 is offline
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You still need actual immigrants to bring capital and numbers to develop a plantation economy. Slavery couldn't have thrived or existed in this country without immigrants or pioneering settlers. It wasn't like everyone in the country was a slave or slaveowner either, even in the Antebellum South.
Slavery and early America is like Disney and Orlando. It served as the backbone for the colonies and fledgling America. It’s the sad fact.
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  #127  
Old Posted May 20, 2020, 5:25 AM
llamaorama llamaorama is offline
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If slavery was the key to success then Brazil should be rich. They had it longer than the US.

IMO countries with a heritage of plantation or colonial agriculture such as in Latin America performed worse into the 20th century. Maybe because they had peasants revolting and terrible governments run by the leftover aristocracies.

Relative stability and market economics balanced with big government leads to development and prosperity.
     
     
  #128  
Old Posted May 20, 2020, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by llamaorama View Post
If slavery was the key to success then Brazil should be rich. They had it longer than the US.

IMO countries with a heritage of plantation or colonial agriculture such as in Latin America performed worse into the 20th century. Maybe because they had peasants revolting and terrible governments run by the leftover aristocracies.

Relative stability and market economics balanced with big government leads to development and prosperity.
Brazil is not rich, but not poor either. Slavery obviously help agrarian elites in the US and Brazil to amass wealth that aside give them a luxurious lifestyle, was also used in other enterprises.
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  #129  
Old Posted May 20, 2020, 1:28 PM
llamaorama llamaorama is offline
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Sure, but it also ended up being a curse too. When did the rural elites of Brazil or the anti-reconstruction southern aristocrats of the US ever do anything to help rather than just harm their country?

I don’t about Brazil but we got stuck with a bunch of worthless turkeys who went out of their way to stop such evils as public education or fair lending practices from spreading in their turf until the mid 20th century. They left us with a section of the country that was less developed and still shows up on maps today as being behind.
     
     
  #130  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2020, 7:17 PM
RST500 RST500 is offline
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About the H1b restrictions:

"For instance, the San Francisco Bay Area's real estate market, whose vitality highly relies on work visa immigrants, will crash once the immigrants move out, as the tech giants lose their competitiveness due to a lack of talents, which can drag the country into a deeper recession."


https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-2...Xfy/index.html
     
     
  #131  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2020, 12:35 AM
liat91 liat91 is offline
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Originally Posted by RST500 View Post
About the H1b restrictions:

"For instance, the San Francisco Bay Area's real estate market, whose vitality highly relies on work visa immigrants, will crash once the immigrants move out, as the tech giants lose their competitiveness due to a lack of talents, which can drag the country into a deeper recession."


https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-2...Xfy/index.html
Why? We’ll all die if people have to wait another 6 months for the next iphone, if at all. Work visa immigrants are ready made tech serfs from the Stemlandia’s of the world, so the tech companies don’t have to lift a finger to cultivate their workforce from the local populace. (esp. the black and browns).

Letting 1200 sq ft cottages in Palo Alto fall in price from 3 million to 1 million would be a good thing. Sorry for those who bought there in the past 15 years. Greed begets greed, and I have no sympathy for any of it.
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  #132  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2020, 1:19 AM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by liat91 View Post
Why? We’ll all die if people have to wait another 6 months for the next iphone, if at all. Work visa immigrants are ready made tech serfs from the Stemlandia’s of the world, so the tech companies don’t have to lift a finger to cultivate their workforce from the local populace. (esp. the black and browns).

Letting 1200 sq ft cottages in Palo Alto fall in price from 3 million to 1 million would be a good thing. Sorry for those who bought there in the past 15 years. Greed begets greed, and I have no sympathy for any of it.
Economic devastation is a "good thing"?

What is with the nihilistic, destroy-everything ethos in the U.S. right now? Bizarre. Hopefully we can one day be Mozambique, right? If tech collapsed to the point where Bay Area home prices really dropped by two-thirds, you would probably have half the planet starving, and most of the U.S. in economic ruin.

This is just Dotard playing to his racist base. The (absurdly low) visa limit was hit this April, so red meat for the Deplorables. And come next year Dotard is gone. So while this is terrible for American economic competitiveness, it's more symbolic than substantive.
     
     
  #133  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2020, 4:28 PM
RST500 RST500 is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Economic devastation is a "good thing"?

What is with the nihilistic, destroy-everything ethos in the U.S. right now? Bizarre. Hopefully we can one day be Mozambique, right? If tech collapsed to the point where Bay Area home prices really dropped by two-thirds, you would probably have half the planet starving, and most of the U.S. in economic ruin.

This is just Dotard playing to his racist base. The (absurdly low) visa limit was hit this April, so red meat for the Deplorables. And come next year Dotard is gone. So while this is terrible for American economic competitiveness, it's more symbolic than substantive.
It could just be corporate propaganda. In the past corporations used moving to Canada as blackmail if there were any reforms to the visa program. However things are different now with the pandemic, recession and potential depression, and remote work.
     
     
  #134  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2020, 4:32 PM
RST500 RST500 is offline
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Originally Posted by liat91 View Post
Why? We’ll all die if people have to wait another 6 months for the next iphone, if at all. Work visa immigrants are ready made tech serfs from the Stemlandia’s of the world, so the tech companies don’t have to lift a finger to cultivate their workforce from the local populace. (esp. the black and browns).

Letting 1200 sq ft cottages in Palo Alto fall in price from 3 million to 1 million would be a good thing. Sorry for those who bought there in the past 15 years. Greed begets greed, and I have no sympathy for any of it.


I support up-zonning the Silicon Valley around tech campuses, single family homes should be zoned to midrise condos in San Jose and Cupertino and highrises on the parking lots of the campuses. However every effort, such as Scott Weiner's bill has been an utter failure and at this point I would be happy to see the majority of tech jobs leave California or move to cheaper regions like Sacramento;
     
     
  #135  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2020, 4:32 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Economic devastation is a "good thing"?

What is with the nihilistic, destroy-everything ethos in the U.S. right now? Bizarre. Hopefully we can one day be Mozambique, right? If tech collapsed to the point where Bay Area home prices really dropped by two-thirds, you would probably have half the planet starving, and most of the U.S. in economic ruin.

This is just Dotard playing to his racist base. The (absurdly low) visa limit was hit this April, so red meat for the Deplorables. And come next year Dotard is gone. So while this is terrible for American economic competitiveness, it's more symbolic than substantive.
I think tech is on a collision course with... something. Perhaps economics? I don't know exactly what, but I do know that tech's current course is unsustainable. Also, tangentially related, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there is an Airbnb-fueled real estate bubble getting ready to burst now.
     
     
  #136  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2020, 6:43 PM
Kennedy03 Kennedy03 is offline
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Immigration from Asia will likely slow. I wonder if immigration from Africa picks up. Also likely that climate changes induce migration in the near future. It’s probable the US will get a sizable share of these groups.
The EU will be inundated with climate change migrants, if it happens. The U.S. will have control over legal migrants; illegal aliens are another story but illegal border crossings from Mexico were down before the pandemic.
     
     
  #137  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2020, 11:27 PM
RST500 RST500 is offline
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The EU will be inundated with climate change migrants, if it happens. The U.S. will have control over legal migrants; illegal aliens are another story but illegal border crossings from Mexico were down before the pandemic.


The EU is near Africa which has massive growth projections which is not the case with the US's main sources of immigrants;
     
     
  #138  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2020, 1:31 AM
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Asia is a huge diverse continent. The top immigrant countries may change but Asia will likely be a major source of migrants for a long time. If we do see a surge it will be from Africa.
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  #139  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2020, 6:14 PM
RST500 RST500 is offline
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Legal immigration has declined significantly:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuarta.../#371e1fa76168

There's also the freeze on H1bs but I speculate that might be temporary if Biden is elected or Trump listens to pro-business advisors if he gets a second term.

China is doing well compared to the United States and getting to the point where one would have a higher quality of life working in Shenzhen than in the Silicon Valley.

It looks like the global south will be economically devastated by the post covid economy, Mexico included.
     
     
  #140  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2020, 6:22 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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China is doing well compared to the United States and getting to the point where one would have a higher quality of life working in Shenzhen than in the Silicon Valley.
Uh, no. Expats in China live in lavish gated communities with personal drivers and assistants and it's still generally considered a hell temporary assignment solely done to boost one's career prospects.

And the H1b crowd is totally different. They'll consider 50 developed/developing Western countries before considering China.

Legal immigration to the U.S. will recover as soon as normalcy returns to the White House.
     
     
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