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  #61  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2019, 3:16 PM
Non-Euclidean Non-Euclidean is offline
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Not secret decisions though.
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  #62  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2019, 3:26 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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Originally Posted by Qubert View Post

"Gentrification"

Just about *any* other location in the US would have a far greater displacement impact than NYC. LIC and the surrounding area haven't been cheap in 20 years. Other cities would see massive displacement while NY can absorb new development much more organically.
While I agree with most of what you are saying this is a bit silly. It's hard to think of any place in the US more expensive than NYC. Piling Amazon on that will exasperate the problem.

This could go to another large metro that doesn't have an affordability problem like Chicago or Philly, and you wouldn't notice it at all. Chicago's bid is on a site larger than Hudson Yards which could single handedly contain all the jobs and apartments for workers without spilling into any surrounding neighborhood.

I don't get why Amazon picked two of the most expensive places in country for this. They brought these complaints on themselves. It's a case of out of the Seattle frying pan and into the NYC fire.
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  #63  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2019, 4:02 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
While I agree with most of what you are saying this is a bit silly. It's hard to think of any place in the US more expensive than NYC. Piling Amazon on that will exasperate the problem.

This could go to another large metro that doesn't have an affordability problem like Chicago or Philly, and you wouldn't notice it at all. Chicago's bid is on a site larger than Hudson Yards which could single handedly contain all the jobs and apartments for workers without spilling into any surrounding neighborhood.

I don't get why Amazon picked two of the most expensive places in country for this. They brought these complaints on themselves. It's a case of out of the Seattle frying pan and into the NYC fire.
We live in outrage culture. No matter where they moved there would be a small segment of people complaining. If they were to pick an affordable(or semi-affordable) place, people in those cities would be complaining that they are going to raise the prices of their once affordable city.

Big companies are the whipping boy of people, for better or worse.

Name one city where a small amount of people wouldn't be outraged by?
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  #64  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2019, 4:54 PM
Northern Light Northern Light is offline
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Without discussing the narrow merits of Amazon in NYC or any other potential locations.......

I do have an issue w/the tax breaks.

Not interested in someone else would do it if NY didn't kinda thinking.

Its the wrong thinking.

Corporations can and should choose to locate where it makes logistical sense to do so and would be profitable.

They should not extort money from the locals playing one place off against the other.

Yes, its been going on for awhile. No Amazon wasn't the first or the five hundredth.

But it has to stop somewhere, this is as good a place as any.

If this development proposal/hq2 location stands on its own merits, I think the locals should get behind it, subject to reasonable infrastructure being or being put in place.

But if its only there to scrape a few billion out of the State's bank accounts..... let the proposal die.
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  #65  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2019, 5:05 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is online now
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Originally Posted by Hudson11 View Post
both of whom were elected by the people of New York State and City respectively to make executive decisions.
But not unilateral decisions.
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  #66  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2019, 5:07 PM
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Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
We live in outrage culture. No matter where they moved there would be a small segment of people complaining. If they were to pick an affordable(or semi-affordable) place, people in those cities would be complaining that they are going to raise the prices of their once affordable city.

Big companies are the whipping boy of people, for better or worse.

Name one city where a small amount of people wouldn't be outraged by?
Oh please, complaining about middle class people paying high taxes while the wealthy get massive tax breaks isn't "outrage culture", it's a legitimate gripe.
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  #67  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2019, 5:31 PM
twister244 twister244 is offline
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Originally Posted by BrownTown View Post
Oh please, complaining about middle class people paying high taxes while the wealthy get massive tax breaks isn't "outrage culture", it's a legitimate gripe.
I would be willing to bet the most vocal of these groups aren't middle class though.....

Middle class people see this as an opportunity to get a high-paying Amazon job, or boost their equity where they live. If Amazon announced they were coming to Denver tomorrow (where I purchased my first one bedroom condo last year), I would gladly welcome them as it would boost my equity enough that I could get out of my mortgage PMI in less than a year from purchasing my first place. That's a win for me. Now.... many in Denver would lose their minds. But these folks would be lower-class folks in poorer neighborhoods that rent. Anyone who owns property serves to benefit from moves like this, unless their on a fixed income that can't accommodate increased property taxes, etc. Even in that case, they could cash out and make a ton of money off their initial purchase. It really comes down to a situation of who this benefits and who it doesn't. In my opinion though, this is a net benefit for many who live in LIC and nearby areas.
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  #68  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2019, 5:43 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is online now
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Originally Posted by twister244 View Post
I would be willing to bet the most vocal of these groups aren't middle class though.....

Middle class people see this as an opportunity to get a high-paying Amazon job, or boost their equity where they live. If Amazon announced they were coming to Denver tomorrow (where I purchased my first one bedroom condo last year), I would gladly welcome them as it would boost my equity enough that I could get out of my mortgage PMI in less than a year from purchasing my first place. That's a win for me. Now.... many in Denver would lose their minds. But these folks would be lower-class folks in poorer neighborhoods that rent. Anyone who owns property serves to benefit from moves like this, unless their on a fixed income that can't accommodate increased property taxes, etc. Even in that case, they could cash out and make a ton of money off their initial purchase. It really comes down to a situation of who this benefits and who it doesn't. In my opinion though, this is a net benefit for many who live in LIC and nearby areas.
There really hasn't been a lot of enthusiasm for it. A lot of people here wish just as much as everyone else that Amazon would go somewhere that actually needs it.

My neighborhood in Brooklyn would most likely see a lot of Amazon influx, due to the our proximity to LIC (and a direct subway line). If Amazon had just decided to come on their own, it would have been far less controversial and viewed as a fact of life. But the appearance of using tax dollars, however trivial the spending for it may be, to lure in this company that many don't view as necessary, is not giving people the warm and fuzzies.
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  #69  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2019, 6:50 PM
BrownTown BrownTown is offline
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Originally Posted by twister244 View Post
I would be willing to bet the most vocal of these groups aren't middle class though.....

Middle class people see this as an opportunity to get a high-paying Amazon job, or boost their equity where they live. If Amazon announced they were coming to Denver tomorrow (where I purchased my first one bedroom condo last year), I would gladly welcome them as it would boost my equity enough that I could get out of my mortgage PMI in less than a year from purchasing my first place. That's a win for me. Now.... many in Denver would lose their minds. But these folks would be lower-class folks in poorer neighborhoods that rent. Anyone who owns property serves to benefit from moves like this, unless their on a fixed income that can't accommodate increased property taxes, etc. Even in that case, they could cash out and make a ton of money off their initial purchase. It really comes down to a situation of who this benefits and who it doesn't. In my opinion though, this is a net benefit for many who live in LIC and nearby areas.
1. The question of who benefits is entirely different than the question of whether or not this is morally acceptable.

2. The people benefitting are in the immediate vicinity, but those paying taxes are the whole state. So everyone not in the immediate area can claim a net loss.
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  #70  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2019, 6:58 PM
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Originally Posted by BrownTown View Post
1. The question of who benefits is entirely different than the question of whether or not this is morally acceptable.

2. The people benefitting are in the immediate vicinity, but those paying taxes are the whole state. So everyone not in the immediate area can claim a net loss.
What are you rambling on about?

It's "morally unacceptable" to have a corporate HQ? What is the alleged "net loss" you're referring to?
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  #71  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2019, 7:11 PM
BrownTown BrownTown is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
What are you rambling on about?

It's "morally unacceptable" to have a corporate HQ? What is the alleged "net loss" you're referring to?
Learn to read dude.
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  #72  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2019, 7:14 PM
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Originally Posted by BrownTown View Post
Learn to read dude.
Read what? What is "morally unacceptable" and explain the "net loss".
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  #73  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2019, 7:15 PM
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Originally Posted by BrownTown View Post
Oh please, complaining about middle class people paying high taxes while the wealthy get massive tax breaks isn't "outrage culture", it's a legitimate gripe.
Thank goodness for this post.

We all know successful people are useful to society and deserve consideration.
But in turn, they need to understand that their success was made by society itself, so somehow, they owe you much of what they've got.

There's some sort of famous US tradition of the rich paying back society, though.
They do it by so-called "charity". I've been skeptical about this, because it's still to serve their fame and businesses through communication and advertising.

I will once again quote the Gospel in that matter.

Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.
But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

This is merely beyond extraordinary. This is pure common soul. There's something else we all know: no one can resist this thing. It's too beautiful and powerful.
The Lord makes no discrimination at all. He is merciless.
Rewards and curses are for all with no exception.
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  #74  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2019, 7:46 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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Stop quoting a text that was written thousands of year ago as if it's relevant in the 21st century...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrownTown View Post
Oh please, complaining about middle class people paying high taxes while the wealthy get massive tax breaks isn't "outrage culture", it's a legitimate gripe.
Does the middle class exist anymore or not? Do you realize that like 75% of taxes are already paid by the " upper class"?

Sick of hearing this nonsense about the middle class paying high taxes (which is patently false) out of one corner of people's mouths while they claim the middle class doesn't exist anymore out the other.
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  #75  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2019, 7:51 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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Originally Posted by BrownTown View Post
Oh please, complaining about middle class people paying high taxes while the wealthy get massive tax breaks isn't "outrage culture", it's a legitimate gripe.
It becomes outrage culture when people start complaining about the lack of unionization for a white collar corporate office. It's nonsensical. It becomes outrage culture when you are complaining that your region is doing so good people want to move there, and your rent could go up.
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  #76  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2019, 7:54 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
Stop quoting a text that was written thousands of year ago as if it's relevant in the 21st century...



Does the middle class exist anymore or not? Do you realize that like 75% of taxes are already paid by the " upper class"?

Sick of hearing this nonsense about the middle class paying high taxes (which is patently false) out of one corner of people's mouths while they claim the middle class doesn't exist anymore out the other.
Yep. I am solidly middle class and I just paid 3% in taxes LOL Of course, I was in the military for some of 2018, so that helped my tax burden, but still.
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  #77  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2019, 7:58 PM
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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
Stop quoting a text that was written thousands of year ago as if it's relevant in the 21st century...
Of course it's still and forever relevant. You're nothing much more than a sorry ape, whatever the century.
The fact that you won't realize out of silly pride is quite a concern.

In my supposedly "socialist" country (lol, what a joke), billionaires manage to pay a ridiculously low tax rate. The tax system here has been incredibly tricky, and they can afford platoons of the most qualified lawyers to take advantage of it.

Little millionaires pay loads and loads of taxes, I agree.
But not the real ultra rich.

Just watch stastics. It's been obvious all over the global stage.
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psst... A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. (John 13:34)
Notre maison brûle... Et nous regardons ailleurs ! - Jacques Chirac on environmental issues in 2002.
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  #78  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2019, 8:02 PM
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L41A L41A is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mousquet View Post
Thank goodness for this post.

We all know successful people are useful to society and deserve consideration.
But in turn, they need to understand that their success was made by society itself, so somehow, they owe you much of what they've got.

There's some sort of famous US tradition of the rich paying back society, though.
They do it by so-called "charity". I've been skeptical about this, because it's still to serve their fame and businesses through communication and advertising.

I will once again quote the Gospel in that matter.

Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.
But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

This is merely beyond extraordinary. This is pure common soul. There's something else we all know: no one can resist this thing. It's too beautiful and powerful.
The Lord makes no discrimination at all. He is merciless.
Rewards and curses are for all with no exception.

Thanks for this post.
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  #79  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2019, 8:55 PM
BrownTown BrownTown is offline
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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
Does the middle class exist anymore or not? Do you realize that like 75% of taxes are already paid by the " upper class"?

Sick of hearing this nonsense about the middle class paying high taxes (which is patently false) out of one corner of people's mouths while they claim the middle class doesn't exist anymore out the other.
1. Yes, the wealthy pay the majority of the taxes; because they make the majority of the money. There is very little progressiveness in the tax system:


2. Tax rates on the wealthy are not signifigantly higher than on the middle class and start to go down as you get into the ultra-wealthy. If this chart had brackets for the top 0.1% and 0.01% they would be even less than the top 1%. Indeed the "top 1%" rhetoric is too broad because it's more like the top 0.01% who are really raking in the money while paying virtually no taxes.


The mistake that I assume you are making is to only look at the federal income tax brackets and ignore all the other state and local taxes as well as the fact the wealthy get huge deductions and advantageous treatment of their income as capital gains and not as regular income.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
It becomes outrage culture when people start complaining about the lack of unionization for a white collar corporate office. It's nonsensical. It becomes outrage culture when you are complaining that your region is doing so good people want to move there, and your rent could go up.
The complaint about unionization isn't that the office jobs won't be unionized, it's that you're giving money to a company whose profit is primarily derived by paying very low wages to the vast majority of its employees.
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  #80  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2019, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
Name one city where a small amount of people wouldn't be outraged by?
Pro-growth cities. Texas has been picking off Californian companies and Texans seem A-ok with more jobs and growth. Some cities aren't as NIMBYish as others.
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