North Side

[grumpy old man]

I understand it is an intersection. It is also the beacon for an area that is profoundly dangerous with the gang activity in the area.

I did not set out to compare Toronto to Winnipeg. I merely responded to the notion Toronto is safer than Winnipeg. I can tell you I felt no safer in parts of downtown Toronto as I do in parts of downtown Winnipeg.

[Only The Lonely..]

Originally Posted by Northern Light

I'm going to add something else here, I'm not particularly comfortable with some of the extreme language around 'garbage people' or other rhetoric that goes over the top in demeaning whole groups, be it based on race, or place of residence.

I don't object, and indeed am intrigued to hear about why problems, which may be tangentially related to race, are occurring. I think on this forum or any other we should all be able to share ideas, observations and concerns opening, and not feel to pressured by political correctness.

That said, some of what I've read here certainly comes close to, if not outright crosses a line past polite and thoughtful comment. I think that's a shame because it really ruins the discussion for the rest of us.

Its not my business to police the forum, but I would ask anyone commenting to stay polite and thoughtful, please and thank you.

Some of these people are human trash. And you can't blame us for resenting them either.

Our tax dollars are wasted on glue sniffers and the like that have decided to draw out their suicide over the course of 20 years.

[Northern Light]

Originally posted by Only the Lonely

Some of these people are human trash. And you can't blame us for resenting them either.

Our tax dollars are wasted on glue sniffers and the like that have decided to draw out their suicide over the course of 20 years.

Yes, I can blame you, and do.

Why?

First because there simply is no need to describe someone, anyone, particularly when they've done nothing to you, in such vile terms.

Secondly, its not just an unhelpful crock to talk like that; its also factually dubious. Those people are someone's son or daughter, someone's brother or sister, or someone's lover, current or former. Because you treat them as garbage does not make them garbage.

To just dismiss them as unworthy of any attention, whatever mistakes they've made along the way lacks human compassion and is the product of an intellectually arrested mind and a callous soul.

While undoubtedly many people at large, and in the North End in particular have made some unfortunate, not-so-bright life choices, that have gotten them into some trouble; that doesn't make them worthless. Nor does it excuse their conduct. But just because someone does or says something stupid does not instantly make them worthless.

Instead of simply dismissing people and without letting them off the hook for any mistakes they've made; why not ask why they made those mistakes; and what can be done to see that those same mistakes are not repeated with the next generation? That of course would be constructive, helpful and might require a modicum of thought, and effort.

Hate may come easily, but that's only because it doesn't require education, forethought, sophistication or compassion.

****

Now, so this does not degenerate further; I will serve notice that I will not be responding in the future to any post or any poster who debases themselves with either racist remarks or simply hateful language unbecoming an adult having a civilized conversation.

[drew]

^ well you started this thread...

And guess what, roaming groups of 4 or 5 youths who randomly beat, stab and mug innocent people on the streets of the North End define trash.

I don't care who their mother, father, sister or lover is. These types of people deserve zero empathy from anyone.

If you are so concerned about rehabilitation and compassion for these types of people, send us your address, and we'll gladly ship off every one of these "misguided" youth for you to deal with.

[Boreal]

One thing that I personally feel gets lost on many people, is that plain and simple, not everybody wakes up in the morning with the intent on being their best. Some are content with mediocrity, and others with nary any significant accomplishments in their life. Sure, everyone would always want 'more' or 'better', but not everyone is willing to put in the work necessary to do so. There are then two types of poverty in my opinion. One in which you are in, but are scrapping to get out, and another in which you ultimately chose your fate, by making foolish decision after foolish decision, or perhaps no decision at all. I say this not looking outward, but looking inward at my own family. Providing somebody with a all the virtues of the middle-class doesn't guarantee anything, because ultimately individuals have to stand on their own two feet. Thus, although I might not use the words 'human trash', I would not call someone off base for referring to able-bodied folks who cost society dearly, in those terms.

Quite frankly, you can't help anyone who is not willing to help themselves first. Again, nobody wants to be poor, but a number of people are unwilling (and certainly in some cases unable - which is why social programs exist) to do what they need to do to get out of poverty.

[grumpy old man]

Well said Boreal. There are generations of families content to live off welfare, popping out babies, drinking and smoking...

The decisions people make to live as they do often does not include criminal actions. So choose to live life as one sees fit, but the nano-second one chooses to break the law is when they've abandoned their rights as humans.

So maybe human trash is apropos.

So NL, be self-righteous and condescending all you want, facts are facts.

[Northern Light]

I want to take a moment to thank Boreal for expressing a critical perspective on human behavior but doing so politely, eloquently and without dehumanizing anyone.

He has illustrated that it can be done. May others follow his example.

***

Because I want, expect and respect thoughtful posts does not mean I think any group of people are immune from criticism.

Nor do I think violent criminals should be given hugs or even lenient prison terms.

Lest my desire that people show respect for human life when speaking of others be confused with a bleeding heart; I actually oppose public housing, and favour limits on the collection of EI (ie. you can only file 3 claims in 10 years etc.) rather than treating it as piggy bank.

I also favour more discipline in education, higher expectations of people, and am quite content to see police 'escort' people to shelters or jail who would otherwise sleep on the street.

That said, I don't believe it appropriate to address any other human being as garbage as of right.

That is not only unhelpful and rude; its also a relative judgement. Ie. "I finished high school, you didn't so you are garbage".

That's a nice thought, but I will assume that the author of such a sentiment would not appreciate being similarly looked down upon by the person with a PhD.

A part time worker need not be looked down on by a Full time worker or the latter by someone who puts in overtime.

One can describe the facts with resorting to demeaning rhetoric.

Violent thugs make up a small minority of people in the north end, I feel certain; and a small percentage of natives; and a small percentage of the unemployed; and no group need be victimized by sweeping generalizations.

[grumpy old man]

You PROMISED not to respond further. I would like to hold you to that promise...

[Northern Light]

Originally Posted by Northern Light

Yes, I can blame you, and do.

Now, so this does not degenerate further; I will serve notice that I will not be responding in the future to any post or any poster who debases themselves with either racist remarks or simply hateful language unbecoming an adult having a civilized conversation.

Note that I did not say I would not add further to this thread, merely that I will not play tit for tat with people expressing themselves hatefully.

My response was to Boreal who I said nice things about....

[Only The Lonely..]

Originally Posted by Northern Light

Yes, I can blame you, and do.

Why?

First because there simply is no need to describe someone, anyone, particularly when they've done nothing to you, in such vile terms.

Secondly, its not just an unhelpful crock to talk like that; its also factually dubious. Those people are someone's son or daughter, someone's brother or sister, or someone's lover, current or former. Because you treat them as garbage does not make them garbage.

To just dismiss them as unworthy of any attention, whatever mistakes they've made along the way lacks human compassion and is the product of an intellectually arrested mind and a callous soul.

While undoubtedly many people at large, and in the North End in particular have made some unfortunate, not-so-bright life choices, that have gotten them into some trouble; that doesn't make them worthless. Nor does it excuse their conduct. But just because someone does or says something stupid does not instantly make them worthless.

Instead of simply dismissing people and without letting them off the hook for any mistakes they've made; why not ask why they made those mistakes; and what can be done to see that those same mistakes are not repeated with the next generation? That of course would be constructive, helpful and might require a modicum of thought, and effort.

Hate may come easily, but that's only because it doesn't require education, forethought, sophistication or compassion.

****

Now, so this does not degenerate further; I will serve notice that I will not be responding in the future to any post or any poster who debases themselves with either racist remarks or simply hateful language unbecoming an adult having a civilized conversation.

Alright your holiness, you've made your point..

You asked for an honest appraisal of the North End and you got it.

I'm sorry if our language is too coarse for your delicate ears, but as Winnipeggers we're sick and tired of you Liberal bleeding heart types from out East telling us how to live.

You'll never understand because your not one of us. Out here, you'll always just be a visitor.

And long after you've completed your moral crusade, the rest of us good people in this city will have to continue battling out of control crime, decay, and an ever growing divide between Indian and White that those from outside the prairies will just never understand.

If you want to come out of your ivory tower and be Mother Theresa, then you can come on down here and open a Soup Kitchen on Selkirk Ave and we'll see how long you last.

In the mean time you can take your patrician act elsewhere.

Now, how about you go back to the Ontario threads or wheerever you came from..

[vid]

I have to agree with OTL here, while there are some people who try and get out of poverty, many don't make the effort, and many are too fargone to do so. My neighbourhood is similar to the North End in almost every way.

It can be alleviated to a degree, but the problem will always exist. The priority should be to help those who want help and fight back against crime. High concentrations of low income people are always going to be magnets for crime and poverty, and every city, especially those in this part of the country, are always going to have neighbourhoods like that.

[DowntownWpg]

Yup, well said OTL

... except, it's more the NDP-type bleeding heart mentality and their unrealistic motherhood statements they love to toss around that I think you are trying to explain. Not so much the Capital "L" Libs from 'out East.' Can't assume such lefties are from Ontario, we have droves of them homegrown here in Manitoba.

Seems there is a social program aligned for every possible human failing here in Manitoba already, in addition to an army of social workers who will cry with you about how life is so difficult. How many more social programs do we need? Besides, while good intentioned, as a whole they obviously are not all that successful. More emphasis needs to be placed on individuals taking responsibility and putting in effort to chart their own course in their life.

In fact, I worry that many simply do not put in the effort, with the obvious security net that the government has all over the place. Just hop off the tightrope, and have a nice nap on the net for the rest of your life.

[ScrappyPeg]

I think we would all agree on one thing - poor, rich, middle class or wherever you fall on that socioeconomic continuum - if you are here to make the community a better place you are welcome.

Taking the socialworkie approach may be appropriate in some cases - but not in all. It's nice to sit around and drink latte's and understand someone else's childhood experiences - but it's another thing to deal with the fallout of one's past in the here and now, especially if you are the victim. If you look at what has happened over the years in the North End, how the dynamics have changed including who now populates that area - you could get lost in everyone's sob story.

I believe the North End will eventually improve - it may take another generation with a different attitude (ie: less a sense of entitlement and more a sense of being responsible).

[dennis]

I have a question. Why is the poverty in the aboriginal population in Manitoba so pronounced compared to the rest of the Canadian provinces? Is it because there is a higher population of aboriginals, or are they just worse off here? If the second is true, why is it so? Or is the problem the same throughout canada or are some provinces or territories worse?

[drew]

^ if you ever visit a northern reserve in Manitoba it becomes abundantly clear why poverty is prevalent. There are no jobs, no industry and no reason for these communities to exist. The only jobs are with council, the Northern Store, the airport, and other small businesses that may or may not exist reserve to reserve.

The schools and nursing stations are staffed mainly with rotating shifts of people who don't live there permanently.

If governments stopped propping up these reserves financially, I would guess that probably 80% of them would cease to exist within a couple years.

It's truly a sad situation and a very unproductive system all around. At some point it will need to stop.

[grumpy old man]

Manitoba has the highest per capita percentage of natives in Canada. More and more are moving from the reserves into Winnipeg. Too many do not have the education or training to survive in Winnipeg. Too many are unfamiliar with urban living in a large city. Too many are used to hand-outs from the chiefs/councils including housing. Too many are single-mother families with multiple absent fathers. Too many have substance abuse problems.

These problems compound on one another leading to obscenely difficult living conditions.

IMO education is the single greatest need. Start there.

[vid]

People living on the reserves aren't allowed to own the homes they live in. It is federal law that the homes all be owned by the band and rented to them. That has to change.

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by vid

People living on the reserves aren't allowed to own the homes they live in. It is federal law that the homes all be owned by the band and rented to them. That has to change.

BINGO!

the whole system needs a revamp and ottowa needs to shut its trap and stop trying to fix things let them figure it out for them selfs (them being the natives peoples) and theres a new grand cheif perhaps we will finaly see progress with this one as phill was just a shit desturber from what i could see

[grumpy old man]

If the home ownership issue was the onliest problem that would be a very easy fix. It is not that simple. But start there.

[vid]

Atleo has a business background, if anyone is going to be able to bring the government around on the need for home and land ownership on reserves, it's him. Give them the ability to own the land their homes and businesses are on, and they will have pride in them. Let them build and run their own schools and clinics and other buildings, instead of bringing contractors from the south to do it, and they will have pride in them.

As I pointed out earlier, Nishnawbe Aski Nations run a system of schools and they operate a high school in Thunder Bay. Together with Confederation College's Neganewin College, Thunder Bay now has the most educated aboriginal population in Canada. Because education here is geared to their culture, they embrace it, and we're seeing the results. The next hurdle for most of them is actually getting hired. Even though they're qualified, many native people in this city don't get hired because of the stigma of race. We always complain that they don't want to look for work, but it's just as bad that when they do want to work, we prevent it by not hiring them.

Another solution that would be fairly easy to change: welfare distribution. Giving a lump sum payment to the band council instead of giving it directly to the recipients like we do with non-first nations recipients would end a large amount of fraud. Currently the system is set up to be abused. A previous council of Fort William First Nation created scores of fake people to receive millions in welfare funds, and it wasn't caught for a considerable length of time. Another important priority is a system to bring accountability to band governments, starting with mandatory elections on a fixed schedule like the municipalities, and an aboriginal court of justice so that they can punish criminals in their own way. In many cases, for cultural reasons, their forms of punishment are more effective on their criminals than ours are, and we have to recognize that.