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  #141  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 4:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drew View Post
Just like Reinsdorf and Ice Edge were absolute certainties up until the moment those deals dropped dead too.

This thing is far from over.

I think most people were in agreement beforehand that this motion would pass.

Until there is an OWNER this vote means squat.
Everyone repeat this post a thousand times. And then another thousand. And if you're not totally sure, do it again. Those 4 points are undeniable.

It's looking like the "original" June 30th deadline is now it, so I suspect the coming weeks will be more of the roller coaster. Today's vote meant nothing other than a continuation of the circus. If the CoG had voted "no", then maybe things would have changed - but then again, maybe not.
     
     
  #142  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 5:04 AM
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Bring the NHL back to Winnipeg: Boycott Game #1 of the Stanley Cup Final

Join us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=121454637878336

The proposition is simple: If the NHL continues to ignore markets like
Winnipeg, Hamilton, and Quebec City, then we as Canadians will ignore
the NHL.

Refuse to watch game #1 of the Stanley Cup Final and
send a clear message to Gary Bettman about who pays the bills in this
league.
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  #143  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 5:55 AM
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To say the least, I enjoy that Bettman mentioned the situations in Chicago and Pittsburgh and how their fortunes have changed. Well, to say the least, BOTH teams have downtown (and not suburban) arenas, and have been previous league champions that had fallen on hard times.

Chicago's problem during that era was an old school owner with his head up his ass and blacked out games on TV in order to drive people to the arena. That's hardly Phoenix's problem.

Pittsburgh's problem is that they have an outdated arena and the league caught up to where they were 15 years ago when both Lemieux and Jagr played for them. That's hardly Phoenix's problem.

Both cities have had developed in to a hockey market since the beginning, with teams dating back to the mid 1920's (Chicago's team stayed, Pittsburgh's Pirates folded in 1930). That's hardly Phoenix's problem.

I seriously wonder what color the sky in Bettman's world is...
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  #144  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 6:26 AM
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Gonna love Bettman spinning how great the Phoenix market is when the Coyotes sell 500 season tickets for the 2010-2011 season!
     
     
  #145  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 2:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
just transfering this for safe keeping.


Quote:
Originally Posted by feepa
next tuesday? nothing is going to happen until after the playoffs if anything does happen, which it wont. not this off season, or next off season.


are you still taking bets?....a team in winnipeg october 2010...
how about for one year, the tagline at the bottom of each post must read:
trueviking (or feepa) is the grand knower of all things and should never be doubted again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trueviking
are you still taking bets?....a team in winnipeg october 2010...
how about for one year, the tagline at the bottom of each post must read:
trueviking (or feepa) is the grand knower of all things and should never be doubted again.


you're on.

You can put that signature on now, or wait until October.. either way, you'll be sporting a signature of the above variety...
Quote:
Coyotes in Glendale, for now

GLENDALE, ARIZ. -- The return of the NHL to Winnipeg appears to be on hold for another year, as the City of Glendale has agreed to meet the league's requirements for keeping the Phoenix Coyotes in Arizona for the 2010-2011 season.
Glendale's seven-member city council voted unanimously Tuesday night to approve a plan to spend up to $25 million to hold onto the troubled franchise for ...
     
     
  #146  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 2:31 PM
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You do realize that last night's vote is no guarantee that the team is staying, right?

They still have to:

a) find a buyer

b) successfully negotiate a sale with said buyer that doesn't fall apart at the last moment

c) have said buyer and sale approved by the NHL, and

d) fend off any legal challenges to the city effectively financing the losses of a private corporation, which is illegal in the state of Arizona.

We're nowhere near out of the woods yet, kids.

In fact, I need to elaborate on something here that a lot of people seem to be missing: last night's vote only happened BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T SELL THE TEAM. If a sale had happened already, there'd be zero need for this financing agreement. Really, the fact that they even had this vote last night shows just how precarious the situation is.
     
     
  #147  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 2:42 PM
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There will be NHL hockey in Phoenix for the 2010-2011 season, the NHL will still own the team but instead of the NHL covering the $25 million in losses it will be the clueless city of Glendale. Glendale city council still believes an owner will buy the team and along with it the promise and proven fact that the team will never ever make any money in it's present location. Gary Bettman will survive another year along with his long held belief that southern US franchises still work (aside from the fact they don't make any money, nor do people in those cites care anything about hockey)
     
     
  #148  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 3:12 PM
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Originally Posted by rrskylar View Post
There will be NHL hockey in Phoenix for the 2010-2011 season, the NHL will still own the team but instead of the NHL covering the $25 million in losses it will be the clueless city of Glendale. Glendale city council still believes an owner will buy the team and along with it the promise and proven fact that the team will never ever make any money in it's present location. Gary Bettman will survive another year along with his long held belief that southern US franchises still work (aside from the fact they don't make any money, nor do people in those cites care anything about hockey)
I'm really thinking this is how it will play out, AGAIN. So this time next year, what happens?

Also, Glendale's commitment is capped at $25 million. What happens if losses exceed that? In a hockey-mad city like Winnipeg, attendance dropped by 2000 people once fans saw the writing on the wall. What happens if Phoenix averages 10,000 per game? I've heard that Phoenix has something like 12-13 UFAs this summer. I have a hard time believing they'll re-sign them, or attract many new ones. So the team is just about guaranteed to do worse, which historically drives down attendance something fierce in that city.

What will the losses be like if they miss the playoffs?
     
     
  #149  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 3:27 PM
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I pretty much win the bet though. No NHL in Winnipeg October 2010. The NHL may yet return to Winnipeg but it's not in the cards yet.
     
     
  #150  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 3:51 PM
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Good little write-up in the Freep today.

Quote:
The yes vote by Glendale council authorizes city manager Ed Beasley to try and satisfy the NHL. Beasley must now make attempts to secure the financial mechanisms (a bank note or line of credit) to meet the NHL's demand that Glendale be on the hook for any future Coyotes losses.

Only a certified financial agreement will satisfy the NHL. Glendale must make a contract with a financial institution to cover these losses that have been estimated in the $30-million range.

However, Beasley will not have much time to satisfy those demands and he's already failed on at least one attempt to negotiate on these matters with the league.

Beasley reportedly asked the league to guarantee that Phoenix would participate in league revenue sharing regardless of meeting the criteria set forth in the NHL's collective bargaining agreement.

The NHL turned down this proposal.
OK, let's summarize:

1. The team has never made a profit in 14 years. In fact, it's lost more money than it would have in Winnipeg.

2. No one is willing to buy this team and keep it in Phoenix without major concessions, because of #1.

3. Because of #2, the NHL is basically having to beg someone to take this stinker off their hands.

4. Because of #3, it's taking far too long to negotiate even a sweetheart deal.

5. As a result of #4, the NHL has basically admitted they fully expect another $25+ million loss next season, and they're unwilling to fund that themselves.

6. And because of #5, the CoG has a gun to its head to fund that somehow.

And the whopper of it all....

7. The CoG knows just how bad this is going to be, and wants revenue sharing monies EVEN IF THE TEAM ISN'T ELIGIBLE FOR THEM. They expect things to be so bad that they in effect want the NHL to fund part of the team no matter what. After all, revenue sharing comes directly from the other owners, ie: the league. Edit: I should add that this is probably not the "if you lose too much money" clause, and more likely the "you have to at least sell X number of tickets to qualify for revenue sharing" clause. See, you can't just tank your team and expect the NHL to keep you in the dough. You have to at least come to some minimum amount of support. This is why several teams recently have been essentially giving away massive amounts of cheap tickets, it helps get them closer to qualifying for revenue sharing. What the CoG is saying is that they expect to not sell anywhere near enough tickets.

The NHL, the CoG, Reinsdorf and Ice Edge have all but admitted that they expect this team to be a colossal failure next season, and for many to come. This isn't just wacky Canadian media, this is every single party involved basically saying "yeah, we expect catastrophic losses".

This is madness. Sheer madness. If the NHL had spent 1/10th of this effort keeping the team in Winnipeg, we'd still have the Jets.

Last edited by freeweed; May 12, 2010 at 4:52 PM.
     
     
  #151  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 4:20 PM
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^ you nailed it!
     
     
  #152  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 5:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feepa View Post
Oklohoma City is pretty big into Hockey, see their college and universities for example. Same with Kansas City, but not as much.

Only two things come out of Oklahoma!


officerandagentleman at IMDB
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  #153  
Old Posted May 13, 2010, 2:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
just transfering this for safe keeping.


Quote:
Originally Posted by feepa
next tuesday? nothing is going to happen until after the playoffs if anything does happen, which it wont. not this off season, or next off season.


are you still taking bets?....a team in winnipeg october 2010...
how about for one year, the tagline at the bottom of each post must read:
trueviking (or feepa) is the grand knower of all things and should never be doubted again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trueviking
are you still taking bets?....a team in winnipeg october 2010...
how about for one year, the tagline at the bottom of each post must read:
trueviking (or feepa) is the grand knower of all things and should never be doubted again.


you're on.
Still waiting for this signature to appear true viking. I have my doubts that you'll come through with your end of the deal, just like I had my doubts about the Jets coming back to Winnipeg for October 2010.

PAY UP!
     
     
  #154  
Old Posted May 13, 2010, 6:04 PM
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^ Don't get your hopes up so soon, the city of Glendale is still trying to figure out who will lend them the $25 million that will be needed to cover the 2010-2011 Coyotes losses, my guess would be certain east coast families who love Italian food.
     
     
  #155  
Old Posted May 13, 2010, 6:27 PM
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Unfortunately the situation in Glendale won't likely be resolved before it's too late to move the team.

I mean, I guess it's never "too late", but Chipman and co. have to eventually start planning for a new Moose season. Sure, the NHL could try moving the team in the middle of August if it's better than them not playing at all, but where does that leave the Moose?

I'm hearing 2-3 weeks as a pretty good deadline for any move to Winnipeg. Beyond that, MAYBE June 30th but I have a hard time seeing that - unless there's some last minute panic AHL re-scheduling.
     
     
  #156  
Old Posted May 13, 2010, 6:36 PM
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Well, it looks like the unanimous council vote to fund the losses for the Coyotes is already starting to unravel... what a surprise.

Pretty sure if this shoe drops, well it's moving time for the Coyotes. The consensus seems to be the next week or so till it's simply too late to consider relocation for the Coyotes for the 10/11 season.

Quote:
Goldwater Institute Will Sue Over Glendale/NHL Coyotes Deal
By Sarah Fenske, Thursday, May. 13 2010 @ 10:34AM

So much for that "deal."

Just days after Glendale and the NHL agreed to a $25 million deal to keep the Phoenix Coyotes in Jobing.com Arena for one more year, the Goldwater Institute tells New Times it will file a lawsuit to invalidate the agreement.

Le Templar, a spokesman for the Phoenix-based libertarian think tank, said the suit will allege that the Glendale City Council illegally granted its authority to City Manager Ed Beasley, allowing him to ink a deal without council approval.

The agreement would have given the NHL up to $25 million in taxpayer money to subsidize operating losses.

The NHL became the owner of the franchise last year after the team under owner Jerry Moyes filed for bankruptcy -- and the hockey league refused to sign off on a new owner, Jim Balsillie, who wanted to move the team to Canada.

The city has been negotiating with two groups hoping to purchase the team, Ice Edge Holdings and a team led by Chicago White Sox owner Jerry Reinsdorf. But so far neither group has been able to reach a deal, which may leave the NHL holding the bag for at least one more season.

The Goldwater Institute previously sued Glendale in 2009, alleging violations of the state's public records law. Under the suit, Glendale is supposed to turn over public records to Goldwater soon after their creation.

But Templar said that Goldwater hasn't received a single piece of documentation since September -- which seems absurd considering how actively the city has been negotiating with the NHL, Ice Edge, and Reinsdorf.

After months of silence, Glendale recently turned over a few documents to the judge handling the case, Templar says. But the city is still fighting to keep them under seal and blocked from public view.

Templar said it's still unclear whether Goldwater will bring the new action against the city as part of the 2009 lawsuit, or whether it will file an entirely new suit.

Regardless, he said, litigation over Tuesday's deal with the NHL is certain.

"We'll be pushing to file soon," he promised. Glendale, consider yourself warned.
     
     
  #157  
Old Posted May 13, 2010, 6:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freeweed View Post
Unfortunately the situation in Glendale won't likely be resolved before it's too late to move the team.

I mean, I guess it's never "too late", but Chipman and co. have to eventually start planning for a new Moose season. Sure, the NHL could try moving the team in the middle of August if it's better than them not playing at all, but where does that leave the Moose?

I'm hearing 2-3 weeks as a pretty good deadline for any move to Winnipeg. Beyond that, MAYBE June 30th but I have a hard time seeing that - unless there's some last minute panic AHL re-scheduling.
Highly unrealistic, but they could just trade teams. The Moose could move to Phoenix and rename the Coyotes and drop to the AHL. The Coyotes could move to Winnipeg, rename the Jets (or Moose) and stay in the NHL.
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  #158  
Old Posted May 13, 2010, 6:59 PM
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Part of the lease agreement for Copps Coliseum with the Hamilton Bulldogs (AHL) is that if an NHL franchise is acquired the Bulldogs must immediately beat it. Dunno if the Moose has the same set up with the lease agreement.
     
     
  #159  
Old Posted May 13, 2010, 7:03 PM
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In the case of the Moose, the owner of the arena is the owner of the team. Though I'm not privy to the inner workings of anything, I'd imagine Mark Chipman can - within some framework of reason - make the rules as he goes along. This is not to say however that he isn't principled and is in no way fly-by-night.

If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.
     
     
  #160  
Old Posted May 13, 2010, 7:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Distill3d View Post
Highly unrealistic, but they could just trade teams. The Moose could move to Phoenix and rename the Coyotes and drop to the AHL. The Coyotes could move to Winnipeg, rename the Jets (or Moose) and stay in the NHL.
Funny, I've actually been wondering this myself. If Phoenix wants to PROVE it can support hockey, and NEEDS a tenant for 41 nights (basically the whole reason we're still discussing this)... why not try an AHL franchise?

It's not like people in Phoenix have grown up with 100 years of NHL history. Would they even understand the difference?

Prove you can support an AHL team first, then we'll talk about an NHL franchise. Plus, the ticket prices for the Phoenix Moose would be comparable to the 2009-10 Coyotes tickets.
     
     
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