Regina's Multi-Purpose facility

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by Migs

That is the issue right there, there are zero fully privately funded stadiums in Canada given the fact that the CFL and amateur athletics aren't home to billionaire owners and millionaire pro athletes. Without publically funded stadiums, there is no CFL. And as far as the federal contribution that is being requested (20-25%), throughout the lifetime of the facility, the feds would make back their money and more through all the tax revenues.
Why would you do that when you can kill two birds with one stone?
The stadium originally was thought to be 'about' 350million dollars before the feasibility study was released (that number was without land costs). After the study was released the stadium with a retractible roof was said to be $431mil (including land costs). That said, it is very likely that the number has already risen, might be why my numbers didn't exactly add up to $431.

You're right that there are 0 fully privately funded stadiums in Canada, but that has nothing to do with the fact that it's the CFL - There aren't any fully privately funded NFL stadiums in the States either, with maybe the exception of the Patriots...

But I'm confused to how these various levels of government feel that they are going to make there money (and then some) back from this extravagent proposal. The income taxes they will receive on construction are a one time thing, covering nowhere near what they put in. The stadium is not going to have more than a handful of full-time jobs that will be paying any income taxes either - and these jobs are essentially the same ones at Mosaic now, so no gain there. Maybe the feds will make their money back off income taxes that the kids selling peanuts and popcorn will pay? Hmmm....

As for property taxes, I'm not sure how much the city will make off of those - often, stadiums are given very favourable property tax rates, but I guess we can't be sure who will be paying, not yet knowing who will even own the new stadium. If it's the city, then no property taxes I would assume; if it's the province, then I'm sure some sort of arrangement would be worked out.

Finally, sales taxes on new construction might generate a bit of revenue for the province/feds, but that's also a one time thing - PST/GST spent at events is the same money that was already collected from Mosaic. In the case that there are a few more events, then this is money that would have been spent elsewhere - no new tax revenues there.

So, where is this new money for social programs being generated? For the Mayor to claim that this stadium will generate increased taxes to fund other programs, they need to be paid back even MORE than they put in (which obviously doesn't happen). So, it's not killing 2 birds with one stone at all.

PS: What's the wager going to be Migs, you keep avoiding that one - is it because you've lost confidence in this project, as many high ranking officials seem to have (by their own admission in all recent articles regarding the stadium)...

[Welkin]

You're right that there are 0 fully privately funded stadiums in Canada, but that has nothing to do with the fact that it's the CFL - There aren't any fully privately funded NFL stadiums in the States either, with maybe the exception of the Patriots...

Bank of America Stadium in Charlotte, North Carolina was privately financed. The 73,298 seat stadium was built in 1996 for $248 million (wow prices have gone up). The majority of the cost to build the stadium was through the sale of PSLs (permanent seat licenses) which gives the owner of the PSL the right to buy an individual seat for as long as they continue to purchase season tickets. The Carolina Panthers sold 63,000 (that's right, 63,000) PSLs that cost anywhere from $3,000 to $20,000 each. The PSLs can be bought or sold by their owners and go up or down in value based on the demand for team tickets. They have doubled in value over the past few years. The PSLs paid for the entire $248 million construction cost of building the stadium. Bank of America Stadium was built and paid for by the owners and the fans of the Carolina Panthers, not by the city of Charlotte or by the state of North Carolina.

Maybe that is what we need to do here in Regina. This project is first and foremost a stadium for the Roughriders and the fans of the Roughriders are the one stakeholder that has not been asked to directly contribute to the financing of this project. If we get the fans of the Roughriders to purchase 30,000 PSLs at $3,000 each, that would be $90 million right up front. That would be a major statement towards the viability of this project. If you can't get the fans to step up and put their money where their mouths are, what does that really say about this project.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by Joe Kerr

Yup, you're making stuff up.

Nope, I am giving my opinion on what I think the funding formula will be. If you cannot tell the difference, c'est la vie.

[Joe Kerr]

Originally Posted by Welkin

Bank of America Stadium was built and paid for by the owners and the fans of the Carolina Panthers, not by the city of Charlotte or by the state of North Carolina.

Maybe that is what we need to do here in Regina. This project is first and foremost a stadium for the Roughriders and the fans of the Roughriders are the one stakeholder that has not been asked to directly contribute to the financing of this project. If we get the fans of the Roughriders to purchase 30,000 PSLs at $3,000 each, that would be $90 million right up front. That would be a major statement towards the viability of this project. If you can't get the fans to step up and put their money where their mouths are, what does that really say about this project.

Finally a voice of sanity. If the major tenant of this stadium is the Roughriders then the team and the fans should put up the majority of the money.

What's the average attendance at a Roughrider game? 30,000 and a bit? That's a long way from the 1million or so people living in the province, the 34 million or so living in Canada and even the 200,000 living in Regina. So why ask the majority of the province, country or city to pitch in for a stadium that is mostly for the benefit of a football team?

If you want it so bad - you can pay for it. I want the government out of my pocket.

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by Welkin

You're right that there are 0 fully privately funded stadiums in Canada, but that has nothing to do with the fact that it's the CFL - There aren't any fully privately funded NFL stadiums in the States either, with maybe the exception of the Patriots...

Bank of America Stadium in Charlotte, North Carolina was privately financed. The 73,298 seat stadium was built in 1996 for $248 million (wow prices have gone up). The majority of the cost to build the stadium was through the sale of PSLs (permanent seat licenses) which gives the owner of the PSL the right to buy an individual seat for as long as they continue to purchase season tickets. The Carolina Panthers sold 63,000 (that's right, 63,000) PSLs that cost anywhere from $3,000 to $20,000 each. The PSLs can be bought or sold by their owners and go up or down in value based on the demand for team tickets. They have doubled in value over the past few years. The PSLs paid for the entire $248 million construction cost of building the stadium. Bank of America Stadium was built and paid for by the owners and the fans of the Carolina Panthers, not by the city of Charlotte or by the state of North Carolina.

Maybe that is what we need to do here in Regina. This project is first and foremost a stadium for the Roughriders and the fans of the Roughriders are the one stakeholder that has not been asked to directly contribute to the financing of this project. If we get the fans of the Roughriders to purchase 30,000 PSLs at $3,000 each, that would be $90 million right up front. That would be a major statement towards the viability of this project. If you can't get the fans to step up and put their money where their mouths are, what does that really say about this project.

You're right, the Panther's stadium was primarily financed through private funding (although the city and county did contribute, through land and other relocation fees - around 20% of the total cost if I remember).

PSLs might be a good way to finance a portion of the stadium (if it goes through), or even to guage fans willingness to put their money where their mouth is. However, PSLs give fans the right to purchase season tickets, so they wouldn't be selling 30,000 (assuming they will save some tickets for single games). While many teams in the NFL use PSLs, I have a feeling many fans would bulk at the prospect of paying $3000 or more for the RIGHT to buy season tickets...

[Joe Kerr]

Originally Posted by Migs

Nope, I am giving my opinion on what I think the funding formula will be. If you cannot tell the difference, c'est la vie.

Nope, you're still making stuff up. If you can't back up your statements then it's just making stuff up.

[dsim249]

Originally Posted by Joe Kerr

If you want it so bad - you can pay for it. I want the government out of my pocket.

Ugh. Not this argument again.

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by Bdog

You're right, the Panther's stadium was primarily financed through private funding (although the city and county did contribute, through land and other relocation fees - around 20% of the total cost if I remember).

PSLs might be a good way to finance a portion of the stadium (if it goes through), or even to guage fans willingness to put their money where their mouth is. However, PSLs give fans the right to purchase season tickets, so they wouldn't be selling 30,000 (assuming they will save some tickets for single games). While many teams in the NFL use PSLs, I have a feeling many fans would bulk at the prospect of paying $3000 or more for the RIGHT to buy season tickets...

No owner wants to use PSLs to pay for stadium costs, they all want government paid stadiums. However, getting the government to build you a new stadium is not always a viable option and you have to look at other alternatives. Most new NFL stadiums require their season ticket holders to also purchase PSLs if they want season tickets and believe me they pay a hell of a lot more than $3,000. That is how they get these new stadiums built. The Roughriders will easily sell 25,000+ season tickets in this new stadium. Instead of putting all of the cost of the new stadium directly on local governments and private companies, it is not unreasonable to expect the fans to chip in and help pay for the new stadium. Besides, you only purchase the PSL once, you will probably be able to finance the PSL over a couple of years and you can always sell it when you no longer want to purchase season tickets. Again, I am not expecting the fans of the Riders to pay for the entire stadium like they did in Charlotte, but they should be expected to chip in at least 15% of the cost. That is not unreasonable. I would purchase my four PSLs the day they went on sale.

Bank of America Stadium cost $248 million to build plus $40 million for land and $10 in relocation costs. The city of Charlotte paid $50 million for the land and relocation costs or about 16% of the entire project.

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by Welkin

No owner wants to use PSLs to pay for stadium costs, they all want government paid stadiums. However, getting the government to build you a new stadium is not always a viable option and you have to look at other alternatives. Most new NFL stadiums require their season ticket holders to also purchase PSLs if they want season tickets and believe me they pay a hell of a lot more than $3,000. That is how they get these new stadiums built. The Roughriders will easily sell 25,000+ season tickets in this new stadium. Instead of putting all of the cost of the new stadium directly on local governments and private companies, it is not unreasonable to expect the fans to chip in and help pay for the new stadium. Besides, you only purchase the PSL once, you will probably be able to finance the PSL over a couple of years and you can always sell it when you no longer want to purchase season tickets. Again, I am not expecting the fans of the Riders to pay for the entire stadium like they did in Charlotte, but they should be expected to chip in at least 15% of the cost. That is not unreasonable. I would purchase my four PSLs the day they went on sale.

Bank of America Stadium cost $248 million to build plus $40 million for land and $10 in relocation costs. The city of Charlotte paid $50 million for the land and relocation costs or about 16% of the entire project.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you said above, and I know that NFL teams use PSLs to help finance stadiums (although most of the recent ones rely much more on hotel/restaurant/car rental/sales taxes to finance the bonds taken out for constructoin)...I know that NFL fans pay much more than 3000 for PSLs - But, as many here state, the CFL isn't the multi-billion dollar league the NFL is. What I was saying was that I have a feeling fans in Saskatchewan would bulk at paying +$3000 for their PSL (not just sask - any CFL city). Lets say you're a longtime season ticketholder - Now, all of a sudden you have to pay 3000 (or more) just to keep your seat? A new concept to many, and I assume the majority would protest such a thing. Yes, it's a one time charge, but that's a lot up front when you're used to buying $500 season tickets... And I realize that the Rider's could probably sell 25,000 season tickets right now (they've been a top team for the last 5 years). However, I'm sure they would cap the number of season tickets to allow walk-ups and single game purchases, for casual fans (remember, those tickets get the team more money per ticket than season tickets, which are discounted). You say you would buy 4 up front (a die hard fan I assume?), however, I'm not sure that the majority of Riders fans have $12,000 sitting around to buy rights to season tickets. But if they do, then this project should have been underway months ago, rather than waiting for a federal contribution that is likely not coming...

[Migs]

Originally Posted by Bdog

You're right that there are 0 fully privately funded stadiums in Canada, but that has nothing to do with the fact that it's the CFL - There aren't any fully privately funded NFL stadiums in the States either, with maybe the exception of the Patriots...

The difference between the CFL and the NFL is billionaire owners and millionaire athletes. Some in govt say they aren't in the business of funding stadiums when that is the furthest thing from the truth.

But I'm confused to how these various levels of government feel that they are going to make there money (and then some) back from this extravagent proposal. The income taxes they will receive on construction are a one time thing, covering nowhere near what they put in. The stadium is not going to have more than a handful of full-time jobs that will be paying any income taxes either - and these jobs are essentially the same ones at Mosaic now, so no gain there. Maybe the feds will make their money back off income taxes that the kids selling peanuts and popcorn will pay? Hmmm....

As for property taxes, I'm not sure how much the city will make off of those - often, stadiums are given very favourable property tax rates, but I guess we can't be sure who will be paying, not yet knowing who will even own the new stadium. If it's the city, then no property taxes I would assume; if it's the province, then I'm sure some sort of arrangement would be worked out.

Finally, sales taxes on new construction might generate a bit of revenue for the province/feds, but that's also a one time thing - PST/GST spent at events is the same money that was already collected from Mosaic. In the case that there are a few more events, then this is money that would have been spent elsewhere - no new tax revenues there.

You have to remember that we aren't only talking about new tax revenue but also sustained tax revenue. Mosaic Stadium is on its last legs, believe it or not there are portions of the stadium that are held together with duct tape and cut up tires.

That said, after the millions in tax revenue is brought in through construction there will be tax revenue collected on everything from concessions, parking, players and coaches salaries, merchandise, utilities, tickets. Add to that the tax revenue brought in through restaurants, hotels, gas, etc on events that already exist as well new ones that can be brought in with a new facility. How many times over do you think Taylor Field/Mosaic Stadium has paid for itself?

So, where is this new money for social programs being generated? For the Mayor to claim that this stadium will generate increased taxes to fund other programs, they need to be paid back even MORE than they put in (which obviously doesn't happen). So, it's not killing 2 birds with one stone at all.

I am not going to put words in the Mayors mouth so feel free to contact him like I did. He is a very punctual and astute man, a fun guy to talk to.

http://www.regina.ca/Page57.aspx

PS: What's the wager going to be Migs, you keep avoiding that one - is it because you've lost confidence in this project, as many high ranking officials seem to have (by their own admission in all recent articles regarding the stadium)...

Nah I've recently come to the conclusion that online bets with people I don't know isn't always a smart thing to do. That said, it has nothing to do with my feelings towards the approval of the stadium. I do so on my own beliefs on what I think is right for the province and what I think will be the correct decision. Its out of my hands and I have let each and every one of the stakeholders that I am aware of know how important I see this project is for our city and province. Like Mr Cheveldayoff recently said, this project has the potential to be one of the best entertainment facilities in North America and a game changer for the province.

That said, like the Mayor I am getting very frustrated with the delays. That is what I hate about politics, delays delays delays. Could you image if the delays continue and 8-10 years down the road we end up building a barebones outdoor stadium for the same price of the current retractible roof stadium that is currently on the books? Alot goofier things have happened in politics, but with Wall and Fiacco running the show I choose to look at the glass as half full.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by Welkin

Maybe that is what we need to do here in Regina. This project is first and foremost a stadium for the Roughriders and the fans of the Roughriders are the one stakeholder that has not been asked to directly contribute to the financing of this project. If we get the fans of the Roughriders to purchase 30,000 PSLs at $3,000 each, that would be $90 million right up front. That would be a major statement towards the viability of this project. If you can't get the fans to step up and put their money where their mouths are, what does that really say about this project.

Now there is some brainstorming that could have some legs. I have stated on several occasions that my family would love to make a donation to this project whether it be through 'Wall of Fame' or even personal seat licences.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by Bdog

You're right, the Panther's stadium was primarily financed through private funding (although the city and county did contribute, through land and other relocation fees - around 20% of the total cost if I remember).

PSLs might be a good way to finance a portion of the stadium (if it goes through), or even to guage fans willingness to put their money where their mouth is. However, PSLs give fans the right to purchase season tickets, so they wouldn't be selling 30,000 (assuming they will save some tickets for single games). While many teams in the NFL use PSLs, I have a feeling many fans would bulk at the prospect of paying $3000 or more for the RIGHT to buy season tickets...

I think you underestimate the fans of the team that buys over half of the entire leagues merchandise. And you are correct in that they wouldn't try to sell 30,000 PSL's as it is crucial to keep alot of seats available for walk up crowd as well as for those who cannot afford seasontickets and/or seat licences. Also seats that would be available under the psl umbrella would have to be available in the smaller arena sized configuration so that the seats would be saved for all events in the facility.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by Migs

I think you underestimate the fans of the team that buys over half of the entire leagues merchandise. And you are correct in that they wouldn't try to sell 30,000 PSL's as it is crucial to keep a walk up crowd as well as tickets availiable to those who cannot afford seasontickets and/or seat licences. Also seats that would be available under the psl umbrella would have to be available for the smaller arena sized configuration so that the seats would be saved for all events in the facility.

I think you're overestimating a bit... they probably woulnd't get more than 1000 individuals willing to fork over that kind of cash for a PSL. Perhaps you'd get some corporations, radio stations, and the like... but very few regular people would pay $3,000. I think even $1,000 would probably be stretching things.

You'd have better luck selling paving stones for a square in front of the complex at $250 a pop.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by Joe Kerr

Finally a voice of sanity. If the major tenant of this stadium is the Roughriders then the team and the fans should put up the majority of the money.

What's the average attendance at a Roughrider game? 30,000 and a bit? That's a long way from the 1million or so people living in the province, the 34 million or so living in Canada and even the 200,000 living in Regina. So why ask the majority of the province, country or city to pitch in for a stadium that is mostly for the benefit of a football team?

If you want it so bad - you can pay for it. I want the government out of my pocket.

Why do I have to pay for a bridge in Halifax or a new highway to Whistler? Sorry Joe but that is the way the world works, the large majority of taxes that I pay goes towards things I will never use or care about.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by Nathan

I think you're overestimating a bit... they probably woulnd't get more than 1000 individuals willing to fork over that kind of cash for a PSL. Perhaps you'd get some corporations, radio stations, and the like... but very few regular people would pay $3,000. I think even $1,000 would probably be stretching things.

I think they'd be able to sell anywhere from 2-5K seat licences at 3K a pop.(note to Joe, that is only my opinion and nothing more lol), maybe even moreso with big corporations like Harvard and Mosaic.

You'd have better luck selling paving stones for a square in front of the complex at $250 a pop.

This or a brick "Wall of Fame" are exciting ideas that could make some serious cash for this project. Not only would you be able to have your name on it, but it could also be a great meeting place and a very attractive piece that ties in with the urban revitilization of that area.

[swilley]

Originally Posted by Migs

Mosaic Stadium is on its last legs, believe it or not there are portions of the stadium that are held together with duct tape and cut up tires.

Really? Could you expand on this? I am trying to envision what duct tape and cut up tires could be used for...

[Migs]

Originally Posted by swilley

Really? Could you expand on this? I am trying to envision what duct tape and cut up tires could be used for...

Next time you are in Regina go look at the stands in the north endzone. Duct tape is used all over the place to hold down wooden boards/backrests and cut up tires are used on the edges so you don't bump your head on the corners of the steel beams. It is so embarrasing that I honestly cringe everytime I see it. And don't get me started on the disgusting liquid that always falls on my head whenever I use the bathroom facilities under the east grandstand.

[trueviking]

joe kerr...you are such a silly bugger.

migs, i appreciate your undying enthusiasm for this proposal but you are not doing yourself any favours with your 'opinions' which are then defended to the death as fact.

things like a $75m civic contribution are simply not realistic....even if you include the few million they could get for the current stadium....you have been so sure for so long that all these players are committed to spending all this money, yet it all hinges on it being a P3 with the federal government....you dont see the flaw in that logic?...

do you even know what a P3 is?...it is based on private ownership, not government.

if they have committments for even $300m they should get building because currently construction costs in saskatchewan are rising 1/2%-1% a month...that can add up quickly when talking about this kind of money.

[skthunder77]

Originally Posted by Bdog

You're right, the Panther's stadium was primarily financed through private funding (although the city and county did contribute, through land and other relocation fees - around 20% of the total cost if I remember).

PSLs might be a good way to finance a portion of the stadium (if it goes through), or even to guage fans willingness to put their money where their mouth is. However, PSLs give fans the right to purchase season tickets, so they wouldn't be selling 30,000 (assuming they will save some tickets for single games). While many teams in the NFL use PSLs, I have a feeling many fans would bulk at the prospect of paying $3000 or more for the RIGHT to buy season tickets...

Ok I'll bite....Source? You're making this up...yadda yadda...bla bla.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by trueviking

migs, i appreciate your undying enthusiasm for this proposal but you are not doing yourself any favours with your 'opinions' which are then defended to the death as fact.

things like a $75m civic contribution are simply not realistic....even if you include the few million they could get for the current stadium....you have been so sure for so long that all these players are committed to spending all this money, yet it all hinges on it being a P3 with the federal government....you dont see the flaw in that logic?...

do you even know what a P3 is?...it is based on private ownership, not government.
if they have committments for even $300m they should get building because currently construction costs in saskatchewan are rising 1/2%-1% a month...that can add up quickly when talking about this kind of money.

http://www.leaderpost.com/sports/Reg...951/story.html

And I agree, time is of the essense.