Winnipeg City Transit/Rapid Transit

[thebasketballgeek]

I am glad to see this discourse and that people are still quite passionate about this topic.

Let me clarify that I am an avid supporter of rail transit in the city. I traversed through the Delhi metro a few years ago and it was amazing. I just believe there is no reason to construct more rail lines in our cities when there are existing rail lines that would provide the city with amazing connectivity. I understand the legal hurdles and costs would prevent much traction until far later in the future, so that's why I am in the boat of BRT for Winnipeg's case. Especially since we have a much lower density then European cities and New Flyer is headquartered here it's just far more practical.

Originally Posted by biguc

The secret thing about rail is, once you have it, it's not more expensive than busses, and in many ways cheaper (lower operating costs thanks to less labour and no fuel). Investing in an asset that lowers costs and provides better utility is just smart.

I would challenge this notion. The future busses that we are going to operate are electric just like the trains. Less labour is true, but busses are also going to be automated in the near future so besides needing more busses to run the same service I don't think LRT will remain with a much lower operational cost in the future and won't make up for the sizeable gap in initial costs.

One thing I will say though is if the 2022 election is a catastrophe and there's no movement on RT by the time I graduate in 2025, I will pack my bags and head to Edmonton where they actually get things done. For now I remain cautiously optimistic.

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by esquire

Glen Murray is 64 years old. It's nice that he wants to come back to finish the job he walked away from in 2004, but at the same time it's a little sad that there is no one younger who wants to carry the standard for sustainable development in Winnipeg. I'm not talking about someone like Bowman, because let's face it, despite his rapid transit promises I don't think anyone truly believed his heart was in it.

At the expense of derailing this thread, who has declared they're running?

Current Counsellors:
Officially:
John Orlikow (river heights)

Likely:
Scott Gillingham (st james)

Possibly:
Markus Chambers (St. Norbert-Seine River)
Kevin Klein (Charleswood-Tuxedo-Westwood)


Outside:
Officially:
Shaun Loney (Social entrepreneur??)

Likely:
Jenny Motkaluk (business consultant; former runner up)
Glen Murray (former mayor)

Possibly:
Brent Bellamy (sometimes journalist)

[GreyGarden]

Originally Posted by biguc

Winnipeg was also a nicer place to live ten years ago. People have choices. You may be satisfied with all that Bridgwater Forest has to offer, but it's a big world out there. QC is, at this point, a much nicer city than Winnipeg, and it's getting nicer. Winnipeg is not. A cruddy, cheaped-out version of Bogota's transit system isn't going to change that.

For the most part I agree with most of what you've posted today, but this is a tough one for me. I'm not sure if its true. I'd guess there's more people with disposable incomes living in the inner city now then there was ten years ago. I think what I find so frustrating is that it hasn't spilled over into any sense of momentum in terms of more development and just street life in general. The sidewalks are still kind of bare and its not like there are shops and restaurants popping up to service these residents in any noticeable way. Possibly because there isn't a concentration of medium to high earners in the inner city. Versus if that demographic were all pouring into Osborne and spilling out from there. Whereas here we have people moving into Osborne, West Broadway, the Exchange and Downtown - it may just be too spread out and as a result prolonging the type of vibrancy these type of residents are supposed to bring to a neighbourhood high street. To bring it back to transit, the added residents haven't really added to a sense of security of comfort on transit. It still feels kind of sketchy sometimes.

All of that is to say, its a tough question to answer, I think the City is probably better today then it was 10 years ago, but it definitely doesn't always feel like it on the streets.

[anthonyk]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

I also want to point out that even though I have been posting on this forum for nearly 9 years I am still the youngest person on this board (currently 21)

Looks like you may not be the youngest anymore! Good to see a fellow 21 year old on here.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by cheswick

Possibly:
Markus Chambers (St. Norbert-Seine River)
Kevin Klein (Charleswood-Tuxedo-Westwood)

Chambers is out, he told the media yesterday that he's supporting Gillingham.

The whole crop is kind of uninspiring, except for that Bellamy guy. He'd get my vote hands down. Otherwise I'd vote for Murray again, but if he doesn't run, then Orlikow.

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by anthonyk

Looks like you may not be the youngest anymore! Good to see a fellow 21 year old on here.

Glad to see people in my age group posting here there's a lot of good information on this forum here and even the general Canada thread.

I have an October birthday though so maybe I still have u beat

[peg]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

Glad to see people in my age group posting here there's a lot of good information on this forum here and even the general Canada thread.

I have an October birthday though so maybe I still have u beat

Here I was thinking I was one of the youngest - I'm 25

[esquire]

It's kind of funny, when I first joined this place it felt like it was weighted a bit to a younger crowd in their 20s and early 30s... it was the older guys who were the exception. Now it's the other way around. It's becoming like a retirement home around here

[biguc]

I was only 16 or so when I joined this board--I all but grew up here. I'm delighted to see a good collection of young people participating. Message boards seem like a bit of a lost cause in the post-social-media internet, but that only makes them more important as places for discussion.

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by biguc

I was only 16 or so when I joined this board--I all but grew up here. I'm delighted to see a good collection of young people participating. Message boards seem like a bit of a lost cause in the post-social-media internet, but that only makes them more important as places for discussion.

Personally this board fills the perfect niche of statistics, urbanity, and politics. Also, it's the easiest place find news on construction projects occurring in Winnipeg compared to other platforms.

The discussions itself can also delve much further into the nitty and gritty of topics compared to social media. I would never cite an academic journal on Instagram or Facebook, but it's very easy to do that here depending on the discourse to be had. Simply put I'd wager the average person's intelligence here is much higher then what I will find in most internet forums. This site being predominantly Canadian also helps when it comes to discussion of municipal, provincial, and federal affairs.

The only place that comes remotely close to SSP in that regard is reddit, but reddit also pales in comparison. I wish something could be done about the user interface to get stronger youth audiences though because this site looks straight out of 2005

[esquire]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

The only place that comes remotely close to SSP in that regard is reddit, but reddit also pales in comparison. I wish something could be done about the user interface to get stronger youth audiences though because this site looks straight out of 2005

We've lamented the technological state of affairs on this site for a long time... I think the last time there was a major upgrade to the forum software, at least in a way that was noticeable to users, was over 15 years ago. That was before social media. This forum looked exactly the same when Gary Doer was premier.

I much prefer the discussion forum setup to social media or even reddit, but it would be nice to have a little more functionality like being able to embed social media posts/multimedia content, make it easier to post photos (which have long been the lifeblood of this forum), "like" posts, etc. I know it's not impossible because other forums have that. But I think this is about as good as it's going to get

[Kinguni]

Originally Posted by peg

Here I was thinking I was one of the youngest - I'm 25

I'd post my age but that could out who I am to Transit, social media policy and all. Add some decades though.

[Kinguni]

Originally Posted by biguc

It's supposed to be insulting. BRT is supposed to have all-door entry and fair-paid zones. That makes it actually rapid. Winnipeg's built busways but continues to collect fairs one at a time, at one bus entrance. That makes it actually slow. Technically, Winnipeg's Blueline isn't even BRT. Bogota's system is. Winnipeg can't even manage to build the rapid transit system of a developing country wracked by corruption and civil war.

Anyway, Winnipeg has less bus service than ten years ago. Thanks Pallister. I guess there are more recreational bike paths than before. Who cares. Nothing about it is world class, and it's throwing bad money after good, robbing the city to make things better in Bridgwater.

2 points on this. One the former, I agree 100%. On the second, Winnipeg Transit cannot currently hire and retain enough bus operators even for the current reduced service due to pandemic. To increase service would require an increase in compensation, especially starting wages, and find a way to improve working conditions. A security force and enforcement of Transit bylaws would help on the lattter.

[anthonyk]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

Glad to see people in my age group posting here there's a lot of good information on this forum here and even the general Canada thread.

I have an October birthday though so maybe I still have u beat

Ah yes, you got me beat. I've a June birthday.

Further, I wish more young people were vocal on these topics. I live in Steinbach and I am hoping to eventually run for council out here, to be an advocate for urban development etc., but that is many years in the future once I have learned more about how all of that works.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by biguc

Quebec City is about to start building a beautiful tramway too. Since the 2000s there's been a neck-and-neck QC-Winnipeg race for Canada's 7th city (at least on population; in most areas, outside of getting back an NHL team, it hasn't been close for a while). I don't expect Winnipeg will be able to keep up much longer.

Population of Census Metro Areas 2001:

Quebec: 683,000
Winnipeg, 671,000

source; http://demographia.com/db-cancma.htm

Population of Census Metro Areas 2021 (estimate):

Quebec 836,800
Winnipeg 852,800

source; https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...pid=1710013501



In the last 20 years, Winnipeg has gained more people than Quebec City by roughly 30,000.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

This is simply not true University of Texas that looks at the cost, operational characteristics, and land-use impacts of different mass-transit technologies (although a bit dated this is probably even closer to the truth now).



You're assuming BRT remains at a stasis and we won't see automation in the field of busses, but just like trains busses also have the ability to evolve. Btw the RT plan includes the fleet going fully electric. This is not a waste of money as people on this forum have stated, and whoever says such nonsense needs to ride on a bus and see the noise difference and emission reports between an electric and diesel bus. Not to mention going electric eliminates fuel costs and replaces that with the second lowest electricity rates in North America. That will significantly lower operational costs.



Winnipeg grew faster then Quebec from 2016-2021 in both the municpality and the surrounding CMA not sure how you got to that conclusion. The City of Winnipeg also has more housing starts then the City of Quebec, but Levis makes it so that the Quebec CMA has more housing starts then Winnipeg CMA.

Also this "beautiful tramway" is 23km long and will cost $4 billion with atleast $1.2 billion from Federal funding. That is a cost per km of $174 million/km. What Quebec is doing is irresponsible to their residents and taxpayers.

Winnipeg's BRT is ONLY $1.1 billion as devised and has 10km more dedicated infrastructure plan then Quebec with approx 33km of dedicated infrastructure and an additional 21km of 5 minute service in rush hour. That is $33million/km. It is simply incomparable especially when Quebec will have to spend far more $$ buying and importing trains from god knows where compared to Winnipeg buying their busses from manufacturers that are headquartered in the City so transportation costs will be nonexistent.

Blackdog if we were to pursue LRT do you really believe that it would cost the same as BRT in the long run when you look at how far apart the 2 price points are? Certainly not in our lifetimes.

This is without any sort of federal funding announced btw, so once federal funding is secured we should expect to see an even more impressive plan.

There is a lot of things Winnipeg can improve in terms of transit, but this BRT plan is not one of those things (except that they should make the other 20km also dedicated infra). As a taxpayer I don't want to waste $3 billion for getting less connectivity just so the ride is "more pleasurable." I couldn't give a damn about that tbh because busses are not that uncomfortable anyway, especially on the RT line where there are no potholes and significantly less bumps then our horrendous roads.

Winnipeg could have done the 2nd phase of BRT right by running it parallel to the rail line so that it serviced high density areas along Pembina Highway. Instead, we routed it far away from Pembia, in order to benefit a certain land development company, when Katz was mayor. The result? BRT is no faster than taking an express route from the University to Downtown.

Not only that, a normal transit route services more people than the BRT. It's obvious there was corruption involve, but why on earth would one run a busway away from people who take the bus???

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by biguc

Winnipeg was also a nicer place to live ten years ago. People have choices. You may be satisfied with all that Bridgwater Forest has to offer, but it's a big world out there. QC is, at this point, a much nicer city than Winnipeg, and it's getting nicer. Winnipeg is not. A cruddy, cheaped-out version of Bogota's transit system isn't going to change that.

I haven't lived in Winnipeg in over a decade, but Waverley West depresses me. Just another cookie-cutter suburb. I miss River Heights, Wolseley, Cresentwood, Osborne and Corydon Villages, Old St.B and even West Broadway.

We need urban density, not sprawl.

[Glenn99]

I don't know about building more rapid transit when we can't even maintain the current one. I returned to work downtown this week for a few days/week. The state of the shelters along the RT line was pathetic. Filled with garbage. I can't imagine anyone except the homeless stepping foot in there. I did notice someone with a pressure washer on Graham Ave on Wednesday. See how long that lasts.

[cllew]

Originally Posted by Kinguni

2 points on this. One the former, I agree 100%. On the second, Winnipeg Transit cannot currently hire and retain enough bus operators even for the current reduced service due to pandemic. To increase service would require an increase in compensation, especially starting wages, and find a way to improve working conditions. A security force and enforcement of Transit bylaws would help on the lattter.

Does anyone know if Winnipeg Transit ever followed up with working with the reserves around Winnipeg to try and train/hire Indigenous people as drivers?

I thought I had heard at least 5 years ago that Transit HR staff and driver trainers were going to go to visit the Pegus, Long Plains, and Brokenhead reserves and run career days including offering trying driving a bus to see if any members were interested in working as drivers in the city.

[oaktom]

portage and main?