Housing Bubble II: The Quest To Build Enough Homes Where People Actually Need Them

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

It also ignores the variety of car ownership rates across Canada. I can assure you that car ownership rates are far higher in the downtowns of Canada's big cities.

Anecdotally when I lived in Downtown Toronto I rented in a building which had 203 parking spaces for 395 units. The parking was maybe 2/3 full at best, at a rental rate of about $200/month for a space. We always had 1 space, and actually increased it to 2 spaces for the last couple of months before we moved to Hamilton.

Through my work I've seen developers saying that most recent condo sales in Downtown Toronto are seeing parking space uptake be at about 2-3 spaces per 100 units sold.

Who needs a car when you're sharing the unit with four other international students and taklng the bus to your job at Timmies.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Who needs a car when you're sharing the unit with four other international students and taklng the bus to your job at Timmies.

It's more like "if I'm living in Downtown Toronto, would I rather spend $100,000 of my mortgage approval on a parking space or use that to buy a second bedroom". Most people living downtown would get a lot more use out of a second bedroom than a car.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Who needs a car when you're sharing the unit with four other international students and taklng the bus to your job at Timmies.

Anecdotally, as someone who lives in downtown Vancouver, we don't own a car because it simply isn't in our budget even at a combined $180k. We make enough money to "afford" one, but I cannot justify the costs with our income / rent. I can't imagine renting a brand new unit at the rates people are asking these days plus storage, bike and car parking added.

Probably minimum combined $3,000 / mth for a 1-bed (which is maybe under 550 sf but also $3k seems low) or $4,000 for a 2-bed (630 sf maybe?), maybe?

Then add the cost of the car per month...

I rent a car almost every weekend and the monthly total adds up to what I would pay in monthly parking!

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

Anecdotally, as someone who lives in downtown Vancouver, we don't own a car because it simply isn't in our budget even at a combined $180k. We make enough money to "afford" one, but I cannot justify the costs with our income / rent. I can't imagine renting a brand new unit at the rates people are asking these days plus storage, bike and car parking added.

Probably minimum combined $3,000 / mth for a 1-bed (which is maybe under 550 sf but also $3k seems low) or $4,000 for a 2-bed (630 sf maybe?), maybe?

Then add the cost of the car per month...

I rent a car almost every weekend and the monthly total adds up to what I would pay in monthly parking!

A perfect example of Canada's declining living standards. One's parents could afford a house and a car or two, now it is a skybox and a bus pass.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Hecate

And here’s some stats about car ownership in Canada. Because I have no idea what I’m talking about.

https://www.newswire.ca/news-release...827345320.html

With respect to downtown Victoria, you really don't. Take the L and move on.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by whatnext

A perfect example of Canada's declining living standards. One's parents could afford a house and a car or two, now it is a skybox and a bus pass.

My QOL is leagues higher than my parents, thank you very much.

They owned a very old and used Chrysler mini van that broke down all the time and my mom took the bus. We couldn't afford daycare so my grandmother took care of us.

My parents did own the detached house we lived in but the payments in the 80s / 90s made us essentially broke and we couldn't afford to complete the basement. The saving grace was we lived in Alberta and it was relatively cheap.

[casper]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

With respect to downtown Victoria, you really don't. Take the L and move on.

Yes, exactly.

As others have said, downtown Victoria is a city you can easily have a good standard of living without owning a car. It is the employment centre for the city, there are two downtown grocery stores, all the regional transit converges on downtown.

It is a good example, what can be done to drive down the cost of housing in city centers. Removing $100k from the cost of an apartment is significant.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by casper

Yes, exactly.

As others have said, downtown Victoria is a city you can easily have a good standard of living without owning a car. It is the employment centre for the city, there are two downtown grocery stores, all the regional transit converges on downtown.

It is a good example, what can be done to drive down the cost of housing in city centers. Removing $100k from the cost of an apartment is significant.

I know ownership is different than commuting data, but the fact that something like 50% of people in Victoria don't drive to work is solid.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

My QOL is leagues higher than my parents, thank you very much.

They owned a very old and used Chrysler mini van that broke down all the time and my mom took the bus. We couldn't afford daycare so my grandmother took care of us.

My parents did own the detached house we lived in but the payments in the 80s / 90s made us essentially broke and we couldn't afford to complete the basement. The saving grace was we lived in Alberta and it was relatively cheap.

I really find all this whining about housing ridiculous. Jobs are so plentiful in Canada that anyone with a pulse can easily find there place. In the past new grads languished or moved. This is still the case in many countries and most of the ones that don't have this problem have our issues with housing. Hmm that might not be a coincidence.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

I know ownership is different than commuting data, but the fact that something like 50% of people in Victoria don't drive to work is solid.

What percentage are coddled civil servants with liberal WFH policies?

[casper]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

I know ownership is different than commuting data, but the fact that something like 50% of people in Victoria don't drive to work is solid.

Parking in downtown Victoria is limited and relatively expensive. Government is in office blocks with limited parking. Many of the tech companies want the exposed brick offices and are in turn of century office buildings that have no parking. A few city owned parkades that have waitlists.

We are going to have to see how this evolves. The provincial government has moved to a model where many positions are permanently work-from-home and the only requirement is you have to be in the province. That said, I don't see a lack of people downtown.

When I moved here I was surprised at how many people take the bus to work from more suburban areas. There is also a large population of people who live and work downtown.

Originally Posted by whatnext

What percentage are coddled civil servants with liberal WFH policies?

Provincial government has embraced work-from home. While many are provincial government employees that is slowly declining.

Most of those solder historic buildings don't meet provincial government standards and are used by tech companies and other private sector employers.

As for Liberal leaning. I wish. That would be idea, however this city is very NDP and Green leaning.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by whatnext

What percentage are coddled civil servants with liberal WFH policies?

City of Victoria says:
"The close integration of land use and transportation is highlighted by 2021 Census figures, which show that Victoria tops all major cities in Canada, with the highest rate of commuters choosing to bike or walk to work. In 2021, 43% of people commuted by bike,
transit or walking and 30% worked from home compared to 49% and 8% in 2016. "

https://www.victoria.ca/media/file/ocpsection7pdf

I dunno why you call people that work from home "coddled".

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by casper

As for Liberal leaning. I wish. That would be idea, however this city is very NDP and Green leaning.

Not to mention work from home seems like a very conservative, libertarian approach, to me anyway. Which is also a great element to combat housing pressures.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by whatnext

A perfect example of Canada's declining living standards. One's parents could afford a house and a car or two, now it is a skybox and a bus pass.

Seems like his quality of life is much better now by not owning a car which cost the average Canadian $1300 a month or $15,600 a year.
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...ational%20Post

Most Canadians lives, in our major cities, would improve significantly, both health wise and financially, by not owning a car and using mini mobility devices, transit and car share for the few times they actually need a car instead.

The latest notjustbikes podcast with RM transit talks about how life improves by not being tied financially to a car.

• Video Link

The people you should feel bad for are the ones stuck in car dependent places where they are force to spend $1,300 a month just to get food to eat or to leave their neighborhoods because there is no other way to do so.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by Nite

Seems like his quality of life is much better now by not owning a car which cost the average Canadian $1300 a month or $15,600 a year.

The people you should feel bad for are the ones stuck in car dependent places where they are force to spend $1,300 a month just to get food to eat or to leave their neighborhoods because there is no other way to do so.

I've run the numbers a few times and it's definitely taking a nice vacation / investment money away from us. We're thinking about getting a car in a few years, but letting the EV market figure itself out (the new weird camper vans are looking pretty sweet). Not having a car while renting, and saving that money for a downpayment really gives us a leg up out here.

In fact I would still live in Alberta if car dependency wasn't such a thing. Cost of living would be way less, for everyone if that was a reality. It really hurts some financially strapped relatives of mine that really need a car for work, due to the city's design. It also affects them when they commute by bus and it takes 1 hour each way on a road with no sidewalk in the winter and they rarely see their kids and are unhappy due to a shitty commute!

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

Not to mention work from home seems like a very conservative, libertarian approach, to me anyway. Which is also a great element to combat housing pressures.

Most corporate jobs that I know people in have been pretty adamant about getting people back in the office by now. It is the gov't and quasi-gov't ones that still aren't. That and puppy mill colleges are why Canada's office market hasn't crashed as badly as the US.

[ssiguy]

As I stated, I have no problem with zero parking buildings where appropriate {ie cities along a major and regular transit service} but like all things, it's not all black and white.

I think any new zero parking building should have to include some form of drop-off/10 minute parking for deliveries. All buildings should have to also provide a few spots somewhere to accommodate wheelchair users both those visiting and for people who live in the building.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

As I stated, I have no problem with zero parking buildings where appropriate {ie cities along a major and regular transit service} but like all things, it's not all black and white.

I think any new zero parking building should have to include some form of drop-off/10 minute parking for deliveries. All buildings should have to also provide a few spots somewhere to accommodate wheelchair users both those visiting and for people who live in the building.

As far as I know "zero parking buildings" are still required to provide those. I only know Vancouver's zero parking by-law and they require the items you stated. In fact they increased the loading bay count / requirements from the previous by-law, as things should be updated as time goes.

[MonkeyRonin]

Eliminating parking minimums makes sense in theory, as at least in a normally-functioning free market, builders & prices will respond to localized demand, and the market will adjust accordingly. More diversity & choice in housing options, and a less onerous top-down regulatory environment fewer required construction costs are always good thing.

The problem is, we don't actually have a truly free or normally functioning housing market; so what ends up happening is that developers can just cut their costs by not building parking and rents/property values don't adjust accordingly; and the externalities of that lack of parking is then passed on to their surrounding communities instead. In a near-zero vacancy market it's unlikely that every one of those residents is choosing to live there with the intent of being car free. Instead, they just increase demand for street parking, and parking lots & garages (which isn't really a great outcome for good urbanism).

So what's the answer? I'm not sure. Mandating the old 1:1 parking ratio is obviously excessive and unnecessary in most cities and too broadly unsympathetic to context; while also inflating construction costs and even making small builds or retrofits of heritage properties unviable (ran into this problem quite a bit in Toronto before they scrapped parking minimums, eg. couldn't even add a basement apartment to an existing house because it was an old property with no parking, therefore would not support a second unit). On the other hand, scrapping them entirely inevitably leads to the public realm picking up the slack for developers to cut costs.

Either way, a 265-unit development in a city with a ~70% car ownership rate is probably going to lead to quite a few extra cars needing a place to be parked, even if the actual ownership rate of the building is below average. Maybe something like a minimum ratio of 0.1 parking spaces:1 unit, with the required number of spots rounded to 0 if less than 10 units could work? Allow for larger exemptions and lower ratios close to rapid transit, or whatever. In any case, I do think it's in the public interest for a development of this scale to accommodate at least some amount of parking.

[Changing City]

In BC, parking minimums near transit stations and bus interchanges have been required to be dropped in recent legislation. Victoria had already done away with parking minimum requirements, and so had Vancouver in their Downtown, and now in other areas of the city too. Edmonton got rid of them in 2020. Toronto dropped the minimum parking requirements in 2021. It's not just municipalities who have been behind this move - the Fraser Institute were pushing it over five years ago. And over 1,400 US cities have a similar lack of parking requirement.