Ottawa Macdonald-Cartier International Airport (YOW/CYOW)

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by RomanR27

This stuck out to me. At 226 seats, the A332 is by far their smallest widebody (actually has 15 less economy seats than their A321s!) with the next two being the 787-9 at 279 seats and a more premium-heavy config of the 777-200ER at 280 seats. So any talk of equipment changes would seem to imply the demand so far is quite healthy.

Wonderful! I mean when the summer flights seeming to be full, talks of increased frequency and upgrading aircrafts is only natural. Can’t wait for my trip in July.

[Jay31]

Originally Posted by YOWhopeful

I listened to the interview. Both in English and in French and I MUST say they thst Laroche ws much more optimistic than what the journalist wrote in his article.

I do think from a marketing perspective that AF has to emphasize CDG as a hub rather than destination.

I didn't listen to the interview...but it is the job of an AF rep to be positive - people would be afraid to book the flight if there hints that it might be cancelled at some point.

I think it'll do well during the summer tourist season, and it probably gives an option for anyone using SkyTeam (Delta) from Ottawa. It won't be competitive for business travellers if it's more than a couple hundred dollars more expensive than a connection in YUL/YYZ (corporate booking systems usually insist you book within a price range of the cheapest ticket). AC frequent fliers will also be loyal to Star Alliance, and probably still prefer to connect via YUL/YYZ to keep their perks. CDG also has a pretty awful reputation as a place to connect in Europe... it would be one of my last choices (preferring ZRH, FRA, MUC or even LHR). I would probably only take this flight if I had to go to Paris specifically...and the price was in range (and I rarely book the cheapest ticket).

[RomanR27]

Originally Posted by Jay31

I didn't listen to the interview...but it is the job of an AF rep to be positive - people would be afraid to book the flight if there hints that it might be cancelled at some point.

I think it'll do well during the summer tourist season, and it probably gives an option for anyone using SkyTeam (Delta) from Ottawa. It won't be competitive for business travellers if it's more than a couple hundred dollars more expensive than a connection in YUL/YYZ (corporate booking systems usually insist you book within a price range of the cheapest ticket). AC frequent fliers will also be loyal to Star Alliance, and probably still prefer to connect via YUL/YYZ to keep their perks. CDG also has a pretty awful reputation as a place to connect in Europe... it would be one of my last choices (preferring ZRH, FRA, MUC or even LHR). I would probably only take this flight if I had to go to Paris specifically...and the price was in range (and I rarely book the cheapest ticket).

To be clear, the interview was given to the CEO of YOW, not an AF rep (although Laroche/YOW obviously wants this to succeed as much as AF does).

You raise an interesting point about DL/SkyTeam -- I wonder if this flight will entice DL to bring back service to YOW (LGA would be a good start but MSP/DTW/ATL would be lovely as well). Sure next to nobody would go USA-YOW-CDG, but it would at least present SkyTeam as a viable membership for status chasers. Because as you say, frequent biz fliers that currently only have AC/UA as an option for US flights will be more inclined to stick with AC for TATL trips as well.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by RomanR27

This stuck out to me. At 226 seats, the A332 is by far their smallest widebody (actually has 15 less economy seats than their A321s!) with the next two being the 787-9 at 279 seats and a more premium-heavy config of the 777-200ER at 280 seats. So any talk of equipment changes would seem to imply the demand so far is quite healthy.

They show 772s with 200 seats. Typo? Can’t be bothered to count.

https://wwws.airfrance.ca/en/informa...os-avions/b777

Edit: definitely a typo.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWflier

I wish I were more confident than I am. Ottawans have the reputation they do for a reason.

I'm a little worried because AF doesn't have good options to scale in Ottawa. No substantial codeshare. And with no XLR on order they can't swap this flight to a double daily XLR with a modest increase in seat count. So they'll need the premium to pay for it. And if AC decides to deploy XLRs to YOW for LHR and CDG, AF could decide to cut it's losses.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWflier

They show 772s with 200 seats. Typo? Can’t be bothered to count.

https://wwws.airfrance.ca/en/informa...os-avions/b777

Edit: definitely a typo.

I think it's supposed to be 280 seats.

Originally Posted by RomanR27

This stuck out to me. At 226 seats, the A332 is by far their smallest widebody (actually has 15 less economy seats than their A321s!) with the next two being the 787-9 at 279 seats and a more premium-heavy config of the 777-200ER at 280 seats. So any talk of equipment changes would seem to imply the demand so far is quite healthy.

Upgauge would be a good sign. Going daily would be even better.

[Truenorth00]

Took the Porter flight to Newark recently from the transborder terminal. Love the convenience. But I do have some criticisms. The amenities at both ends suck. Just one restaurant in Ottawa in the transborder terminal. Wasn't great. A modest meal for our family was $100. Even the Tim's upstairs isn't a real Tim's. And the B gates they use at Newark have two sort of restobars and a grab-n-go where I paid USD $53 for three sandwiches, two packets of chips and a fizzy water drink. And of course, there's the ~US$120 cab/Uber rides to mid town.

I get why Porter flies to Newark. But I question whether they genuinely get enough interline traffic to make it worthwhile. And whether they get enough business traffic bound for the financial district to really make serving Newark necessary. Especially him. Ottawa. With services starting up at YYZ, I do wonder if they should move YOW and maybe a new YYZ service to LGA. It's better for tourists with easy transit connections (with the ability to tap with your credit card now). And they wouldn't have to compete with AC/UA 4x per day with their 2x per day.

Maybe if YTZ ever gets preclearance....

Likewise, wish they'd launch service to Chicago Midway and Washington Reagan from here. Would love to see them lean into the urban airport airline image a bit more.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Took the Porter flight to Newark recently from the transborder terminal. Love the convenience. But I do have some criticisms. The amenities at both ends suck. Just one restaurant in Ottawa in the transborder terminal. Wasn't great. A modest meal for our family was $100. Even the Tim's upstairs isn't a real Tim's. And the B gates they use at Newark have two sort of restobars and a grab-n-go where I paid USD $53 for three sandwiches, two packets of chips and a fizzy water drink. And of course, there's the ~US$120 cab/Uber rides to mid town.

I get why Porter flies to Newark. But I question whether they genuinely get enough interline traffic to make it worthwhile. And whether they get enough business traffic bound for the financial district to really make serving Newark necessary. Especially him. Ottawa. With services starting up at YYZ, I do wonder if they should move YOW and maybe a new YYZ service to LGA. It's better for tourists with easy transit connections (with the ability to tap with your credit card now). And they wouldn't have to compete with AC/UA 4x per day with their 2x per day.

Maybe if YTZ ever gets preclearance....

Likewise, wish they'd launch service to Chicago Midway and Washington Reagan from here. Would love to see them lean into the urban airport airline image a bit more.

LGA is actually usually considered the least transit connected airport. Newark has by far the best with a direct train to midtown. I mean if you are a backpacker the ability to take the bus to the subway is the cheapest option to the city but for most it's a taxi airport.

[YOWflier]

The TB area at YOW is a place best dwelled at for very little time. That way the lack of amenities annoy you least. The benefit of TB at YOW which cannot be overstated is comically fast security and customs pre clearance. In the current context there is no reason for an experienced traveller to arrive for a TB flight more than 60-75min before departure. That way you’re sitting around for at most about 30 min before boarding assuming no delay. Enough to sip a Tim’s or a beer and go.

[RomanR27]

YouTuber Mark Brandon filmed both the inaugural AF arrival and departure: https://youtu.be/soU0Sjbuq44

[OTSkyline]

We did the same trek 2 weeks ago and agreed, the offerings on the TB side are laughable. Most people don't eat/drink before they get through security and to their gates (to be safe) but in this case I wish I would've grabbed something in the food options pre-security. They should at least have a warning or sign of what the food options are post-security... Couldn't even get a bagel at Tim Hortons because it's only an Express Kiosk, meaning donuts or coffee, that's it.

But I found Newark to be a good airport option for NYC. None of the airports are particularly close to Manhattan and those Uber prices would be very similar for the other two I'm sure. We took the train from Newark Station to Penn Station and it was easy, fast and only about $15USD per person.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Took the Porter flight to Newark recently from the transborder terminal. Love the convenience. But I do have some criticisms. The amenities at both ends suck. Just one restaurant in Ottawa in the transborder terminal. Wasn't great. A modest meal for our family was $100. Even the Tim's upstairs isn't a real Tim's. And the B gates they use at Newark have two sort of restobars and a grab-n-go where I paid USD $53 for three sandwiches, two packets of chips and a fizzy water drink. And of course, there's the ~US$120 cab/Uber rides to mid town.

I get why Porter flies to Newark. But I question whether they genuinely get enough interline traffic to make it worthwhile. And whether they get enough business traffic bound for the financial district to really make serving Newark necessary. Especially him. Ottawa. With services starting up at YYZ, I do wonder if they should move YOW and maybe a new YYZ service to LGA. It's better for tourists with easy transit connections (with the ability to tap with your credit card now). And they wouldn't have to compete with AC/UA 4x per day with their 2x per day.

Maybe if YTZ ever gets preclearance....

Likewise, wish they'd launch service to Chicago Midway and Washington Reagan from here. Would love to see them lean into the urban airport airline image a bit more.

What were the EWR loads like for your two PD flights?

As for AF, I’m cautiously optimistic it’ll be a big hit. When YQB launched last summer it was 3x weekly 332. Now it’s still 3x weekly this summer but on the 789. Priority should be to get it up to daily in summer for 2024 or 25. I’ll be using the route for the first time this winter…and will pay the YOW premium. I ran the numbers and after factoring in all the variables saving a bit out of YUL just wasn’t worth it.

Today's departure count: 75

Today's cancellation count (so far): 2 - if this were 0, like yesterday, it would have tied the post-March 2020 record of 77 that's been hit a couple of times.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

LGA is actually usually considered the least transit connected airport. Newark has by far the best with a direct train to midtown. I mean if you are a backpacker the ability to take the bus to the subway is the cheapest option to the city but for most it's a taxi airport.

Normally I'd agree with you. But it was a different perspective for me traveling with the family. If I'm getting in a cab or Uber, I'm not sure LGA or EWR it's really distinguishable. But being able to take just one bus and subway to LGA with a single swipe of credit card, has to be nice.

Originally Posted by YOWflier

The TB area at YOW is a place best dwelled at for very little time. That way the lack of amenities annoy you least. The benefit of TB at YOW which cannot be overstated is comically fast security and customs pre clearance. In the current context there is no reason for an experienced traveller to arrive for a TB flight more than 60-75min before departure. That way you’re sitting around for at most about 30 min before boarding assuming no delay. Enough to sip a Tim’s or a beer and go.

Wish I knew this in advance! I assumed standard timings just to be safe. And also since we had checked baggage, our latest would be 90 mins before departure. So we ended up there with over 2 hrs to kill. Brutal. No lounge. No full coffee shop.

[RomanR27]

For EWR - if you're gonna Uber/cab and not take public transit into Manhattan I'd probably fly AC into the new terminal A -- it's quite nice and had a few food options. If you're taking public transit though, getting to Newark Penn from terminal B is a much smoother experience than A.

We were also at YOW far too early for the flight -- our experience flying to MCO last winter clouded our judgement (they were actually pulling staff from domestic security to expedite the TB security line). Vastly different TB experience when there's no Florida flights!

[pattherat]

Originally Posted by originalmuffins

Yeah, I am just hoping our market can weather the storm. If AF also makes integration to using CDG easy as a stopover to other destinations in Europe, that would also drive up numbers for travellers from YOW.

I am happy we have this route, and when I get the chance I will fly AF to do my part. If this route is successful then we can start to see more options trickle in.

Same.

I want this route here but looking at flights for next April, there is a $300-$400 premium over other options. (Lufthansa WITH the connection to YUL included for instance)

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'm a little worried because AF doesn't have good options to scale in Ottawa. No substantial codeshare. And with no XLR on order they can't swap this flight to a double daily XLR with a modest increase in seat count. So they'll need the premium to pay for it. And if AC decides to deploy XLRs to YOW for LHR and CDG, AF could decide to cut it's losses.

There is the WS-AF connection. The inbound YEG, YYC and YWG WS flights this summer connect to the AF departure with 1h50 to 2h50 connection times.

The inbound AF can connect to the WS YWG (tight at 55 minutes), YYZ and YVR nicely and the evening YYC too with a longer connection. 20 connectors per flight would go a long ways to helping get a high LF.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Wish I knew this in advance! I assumed standard timings just to be safe. And also since we had checked baggage, our latest would be 90 mins before departure. So we ended up there with over 2 hrs to kill. Brutal. No lounge. No full coffee shop.

Once you optimize your timings with experience you learn to appreciate the efficiency believe it or not.

As others have alluded this is a seasonal recommendation. In the winter, keep an eye on those Florida (and soon Vegas) flights. All it takes is 2-3 of those departing in close proximity, in additional to the regular routes, to surge security and pre clearance.

Basically just keep an eye on the FIDS and plan accordingly based on number of departures around yours. It’s almost always very fast.

[originalmuffins]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

What were the EWR loads like for your two PD flights?

As for AF, I’m cautiously optimistic it’ll be a big hit. When YQB launched last summer it was 3x weekly 332. Now it’s still 3x weekly this summer but on the 789. Priority should be to get it up to daily in summer for 2024 or 25. I’ll be using the route for the first time this winter…and will pay the YOW premium. I ran the numbers and after factoring in all the variables saving a bit out of YUL just wasn’t worth it.

Today's departure count: 75

Today's cancellation count (so far): 2 - if this were 0, like yesterday, it would have tied the post-March 2020 record of 77 that's been hit a couple of times.

Well, you're doing your part to support our market. I'm doing the same. I've flown 6 times with Porter and refuse to use AC or Westjet. I also plan to fly AF this winter, the price difference isn't really that far off too. I'll use cheaper airfare from CDG to connect to different cities.

Wish I could say the same for some folk on the Ottawa subreddit.

[RomanR27]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

There is the WS-AF connection. The inbound YEG, YYC and YWG WS flights this summer connect to the AF departure with 1h50 to 2h50 connection times.

The inbound AF can connect to the WS YWG (tight at 55 minutes), YYZ and YVR nicely and the evening YYC too with a longer connection. 20 connectors per flight would go a long ways to helping get a high LF.

I'm not sure this is feasible in practice - I tried doing YEG-CDG on Google Flights filtering for YOW connection and 1-stop and only got sporadic listings that were flagged as being separate tickets booked together. YWG-CDG (and CDG-YWG) through YOW returned no results.

I got results for CDG-YYZ via YOW but not really price competitive vs. direct routes on other airlines.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

What were the EWR loads like for your two PD flights?

No hard numbers obviously. But visually, it looked decent. I'd say 70-80% full. When we were checking in at EWR, I heard them get the call for the incoming flight. They said they had 50 pax onboard. Honestly, I think Porter would actually see numbers go up if they had more than two flights per day.