AUSTIN | Economic Development

[The ATX]

Everyone should know by now that I hate political discussions, and that I delete a lot of political posts. But this is a good discussion, and I'll let it continue. Just state your arguments and agree to disagree. Don't start with the "you people/liberal/conservatives/etc." B.S.

[shoreditch]

My two cents? I think we can walk and chew gum at the same time.

It can both be true that:

1) Structural inequities in our society make it much harder for some people, just by their birth location, skin color, etc. to get a leg up in society. When I read the story of the family grocery, I found it INSPIRING and your attitude is 10000% right and CAN be applied to anyone in any walk of life with any amount of privilege. It could have also been somewhat easier for that family to get by and be successful. Kudos to you for doing it, and everyone, even if our society were more just, should have that attitude. Regarldess of if your K-12 education was better or worse than your neighbors, I agree that that perspective makes up for it. It just maybe shouldn't have to as much as it does these days?

2. We shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth amidst a pandemic-induced global recession. In so many ways this is a NET POSITIVE for our region, for our citizens, for our brand, etc. etc. As a small business owner in Austin struggling with the 5th month of my revenue cut in half, I welcome this completely. 5,000! Jobs! A firm that is on the cutting edge of sustainability and innovative tech! The potential to land that compay's future headquarters! These are all incredible bonuses for Austin, just at a time when we could use the investment and the diversification of our economy.

[the Genral]

ATX, you're baaaack. This pleases me.

[H2O]

Originally Posted by the Genral

ATX, you're baaaack. This pleases me.

[freerover]

Originally Posted by The ATX

Everyone should know by now that I hate political discussions, and that I delete a lot of political posts. But this is a good discussion, and I'll let it continue. Just state your arguments and agree to disagree. Don't start with the "you people/liberal/conservatives/etc." B.S.

I think you're letting it continue because you agree with the sentiment.

[enragedcamel]

Originally Posted by urbancore

One could say the same of yours.......

I called $35k/year including benefits "insultingly low". Why do you think that is inflammatory? It's the truth, especially in a city like Austin that is expensive and continues to get more so every day.

This, on the other hand:

"Agree 100000% ...but be careful, it's 2020 now and you're going to offend a lot of undeserved entitled people with your "self accountability" mindset."

Adds nothing to the discussion, and is fully intended to inflame. Furthermore, it is political.

I think there's definitely value in discussing the economic benefits of a Tesla presence here (and the detriments and moral hazards of the incentives they received), but I think we can all do it in a way that doesn't get into soap box territory and turn it into a conversation about the virtue of hard work or whatever. Everyone's experience in life is different. Just because you're 100% self-made doesn't mean wealth and success are possible for everybody as long as they work their asses off. Plenty of people work two, even three jobs and hardly manage to get by.

[enragedcamel]

Changing the subject...

One thing I've been worried about is that a ton of companies, including the major tech companies with presence in Austin, have been switching to permanent work-from-home setups. This will undoubtedly have an impact on commercial real estate (it already is having an impact, actually) as well as retail. How do you guys think this will affect skyscraper development and how will it affect downtown as a whole?

[atxsnail]

Originally Posted by enragedcamel

Changing the subject...

One thing I've been worried about is that a ton of companies, including the major tech companies with presence in Austin, have been switching to permanent work-from-home setups. This will undoubtedly have an impact on commercial real estate (it already is having an impact, actually) as well as retail. How do you guys think this will affect skyscraper development and how will it affect downtown as a whole?

I think that while the makeup of the companies taking space in office towers will likely shift, there will still be enough need for a physical location that the sky isn't falling just yet - at least for the existing stock and that already close to completion.

If anything, as premiums above comparable space drop for coveted new buildings, other companies will filter in from less prestigious buildings and so on. For example, my employer had an office in the heart of downtown 30 years ago and after many rent increases and several moves we are now in a nice (Class A) but fairly anonymous place near the Arboretum. We already had the freedom to work from home at any time before the pandemic but most of us came to the office anyway.

If Domain or downtown space were to become available for only a moderate increase I could see us moving just for the other amenities. Of course no way that happens without a vaccine.

[shoreditch]

Originally Posted by enragedcamel

Changing the subject...

One thing I've been worried about is that a ton of companies, including the major tech companies with presence in Austin, have been switching to permanent work-from-home setups. This will undoubtedly have an impact on commercial real estate (it already is having an impact, actually) as well as retail. How do you guys think this will affect skyscraper development and how will it affect downtown as a whole?

In the near term (0-3 years), I'm sure it depresses the commercial markets in CBDs everywhere. In the long term (5-10+ years), I'm sure we mean revert back to going into offices. Working from home is in some ways better, but it can get lonely and people a lot of times like to compartmentalize their days. It may take a few years, but I'd expect folks to return, but I'm sure the work from home option remains.

Also, FWIW, I think the trends towards live/work/play, and denser communities will continue for the most part given millenials and gen X perfer them and they are more sustainable environmentally. Meaning, I think the offerings our core has will only continue to be added to in terms of employment, leasure and housing.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by shoreditch

In the near term (0-3 years), I'm sure it depresses the commercial markets in CBDs everywhere. In the long term (5-10+ years), I'm sure we mean revert back to going into offices. Working from home is in some ways better, but it can get lonely and people a lot of times like to compartmentalize their days. It may take a few years, but I'd expect folks to return, but I'm sure the work from home option remains.

Also, FWIW, I think the trends towards live/work/play, and denser communities will continue for the most part given millenials and gen X perfer them and they are more sustainable environmentally. Meaning, I think the offerings our core has will only continue to be added to in terms of employment, leasure and housing.

In the medium term, I'm actually a little curious if this poisons the well against work from home a bit.

Working from home during Covid isn't exactly WFH at it's best. It's forced, without even the option (for many) to ever go in. For some, without the option to work from (for instance) a coffer shop or bar. For many parents, having to work from home while trying to juggle the kids.

I'm sure there's some who previously hadn't worked from home but now will consider that option, but there's probably others that previously would have considered it but now will push back against it.

[StoOgE]

Originally Posted by freerover

I think you're letting it continue because you agree with the sentiment.

Yeah, discussion seems to be allowed to be political as long as it aligns with the political leanings of the admins on the site.

Individuals can work really hard and get themselves in a better position than they were earlier in their life. Yet it is equally true that lots of people work really hard and not meaningfully improve their lives, and that there are meaningful and un-ignorable statistics that upward mobility in the United States does not apply evenly.

Our belief in upward mobility tends to not align with statistical upward mobility in the country, and most stories of rags to riches rely on appeals to individual experiences and not statistical analysis.

https://insight.kellogg.northwestern...-match-reality

https://www.forbes.com/sites/aparnam.../#6b5f90d06a7b

https://www.pnas.org/content/117/1/251

[atxsnail]

Originally Posted by StoOgE

Our belief in upward mobility tends to not align with statistical upward mobility in the country, and most stories of rags to riches rely on appeals to individual experiences and not statistical analysis.

https://insight.kellogg.northwestern...-match-reality

https://www.forbes.com/sites/aparnam.../#6b5f90d06a7b

https://www.pnas.org/content/117/1/251

the american dream myth lies at the ugly intersection of confirmation bias and publication bias. rags to riches stories are deservedly celebrated but we rarely acknowledge the role of blind chance and lucky timing

[urbancore]

Originally Posted by atxsnail

the american dream myth

I’m genuinely sad you feel this way. It’s not true.

Just because it’s not universal, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t hold it out as a goal. I’m successful, but not till I’ll was 40, and if I’m being honest, my REAL dream of being a competitive runner my entire life never materialized. I had to learn how to fail, and start over, strive, and never quit. Never quit on yourself.

[shoreditch]

Originally Posted by urbancore

I’m genuinely sad you feel this way. It’s not true.

Just because it’s not universal, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t hold it out as a goal. I’m successful, but not till I’ll was 40, and if I’m being honest, my REAL dream of being a competitive runner my entire life never materialized. I had to learn how to fail, and start over, strive, and never quit. Never quit on yourself.

This is why I was trying to say both of these ideals can be true at the same time.

I don't think providing better, more equitable, high-qualty education to everyone equally robs those of lesser means of their desire to innovate?? It only creates MORE opportunity for good ideas and greater market competiton.

We can both believe that 1) society is unjust and we should seek to rectify the institutions that make it systemically unjust through various social programmes and incentives and 2) you make the most of your own life, and you still have to work damn hard to be a success.

I also don't think that those that are advocating for a more just society are saying everyone should be given a handout. I mean, I think that's fairly obvious but it needs stating cause I get the sense that some people think that basic social resources completely disincentivizes people from working. Nothing in labor statistics bares that claim out, everything that usually gets cited is anecdotal or heresay.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by urbancore

I’m genuinely sad you feel this way. It’s not true.

Just because it’s not universal, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t hold it out as a goal. I’m successful, but not till I’ll was 40, and if I’m being honest, my REAL dream of being a competitive runner my entire life never materialized. I had to learn how to fail, and start over, strive, and never quit. Never quit on yourself.

The American Dream:

With hard work alone ANYONE* can make it

*except that this isn’t true at all as the STATISTICS show. Anecdotes aside, the statistics routinely show that for large portions of people in the United States the accomplishing the American Dream is beyond their reach. Period.

Not ANYONE can make it. Only SOME make it.

[The ATX]

Originally Posted by freerover

I think you're letting it continue because you agree with the sentiment.

That's not true because "the sentiment" is going both ways.

[ILUVSAT]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

The American Dream:

With hard work alone ANYONE* can make it

*except that this isn’t true at all as the STATISTICS show. Anecdotes aside, the statistics routinely show that for large portions of people in the United States the accomplishing the American Dream is beyond their reach. Period.

Not ANYONE can make it. Only SOME make it.

Just curious...define "making it." More specifically, what does it mean to you?

"Making it" is an immensely subjective phrase.

[Jdawgboy]

Originally Posted by ILUVSAT

Actually, it is. Just own it. Work your ass off in trying to achieve it. It's totally, 100% up to the individual. Nothing is going to be given to you freely - so don't expect it. Entitlement gets you nowhere.

You know I wasn't going to respond and let it be, but I changed my mind because this is one of the most narrow minded, uninformed statements I have seen so far.

Must be nice living in your fantasy world bubble, but out in the real world, things aren't quite as easy even when one puts 120%.

You go on and say that to some of my friends who have worked their asses off day in and day out, doing whatever they can to improve their quality of life with little success and watch how quickly you get slapped in the face. One of my friends that I went to highschool with has gone to school more than once to aquire more skills to expand her job opportunities, she worked pretty much 7 days a week in a low paying job and she provided for her two kids on her own. She has applied at jobs that she is qualified for only to get turned down again and again. Maybe because she isn't white? Maybe because she's a woman. I'd like you to answer why she hasn't been able to move up to a better job because you can't say it's all on her can you now... What happens when people put everything they can on the table and continue to have difficulty? You gonna say it's their fault ??? You really going to be that freaking offensive?

[llamaorama]

People shouldn't have to work 12 hour days 7 days a week to have a reasonable standard of living. Just because some people have the ability to not burn out and become very successful after having a hard time growing up doesn't mean that everyone can do that.

Of course Tesla can't realistically be expected to pay forklift operators 70k a year either, anyone with an understanding of basic economics knows that's not happening, and it wouldn't make sense to chase away an employer willing to pay an acceptable 32k a year+health insurance to unskilled plant workers during the middle of an economic crisis.

Injecting moral philosophy about people "deserving" a wage really isn't relevant here.

[StoOgE]

I grew up in a trailer park and most of my family have blue collar jobs. I promise you the vast majority of the people I grew up with work a lot harder than the people around me in Zilker now.

Lotta peeps on mid day jogs and dog walks round here.

Maybe poor people should try leisure wear mid-day jogs instead of mowing grass in 100 degree temps.