PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[duffey]

Philly's chinatown isn't asking the world around it to stand still. they are asking to stop being chopped up. This proposal is MUCH closer to DC's chinatown arena than any comp to MSG. Chinatown has been eroding since the vine street expy. This arena will be great.... on the 41 nights a year that there's a Sixers game. otherwise it'll be a deadzone inside a dead zone.

I do love the transit requirement for going to games here. I just think inga sees a bigger picture and is reading the tea leaves correctly. its one more nail in the chinatown coffin.

[mja]

Originally Posted by duffey

Philly's chinatown isn't asking the world around it to stand still. they are asking to stop being chopped up. This proposal is MUCH closer to DC's chinatown arena than any comp to MSG. Chinatown has been eroding since the vine street expy. This arena will be great.... on the 41 nights a year that there's a Sixers game. otherwise it'll be a deadzone inside a dead zone.

Has it, though? I made my first real visit to Chinatown around 1991 or so. Cut school with a couple of friends. Frequented shows at the Troc throughout my late teens and early 20s. As an adult, I'm there often enough and drive through it all the time. I think it's hardly changed at all. In fact, of every neighborhood in Philly, I feel like Chinatown is maybe the one that has changed the least.

Also, the arena would surely have events other than Sixers games. I'd expect it to host events about a 150 days/nights a year.

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by mja

Has it, though? I made my first real visit to Chinatown around 1991 or so. Cut school with a couple of friends. Frequented shows at the Troc throughout my late teens and early 20s. As an adult, I'm there often enough and drive through it all the time. I think it's hardly changed at all. In fact, of every neighborhood in Philly, I feel like Chinatown is maybe the one that has changed the least.

Also, the arena would surely have events other than Sixers games. I'd expect it to host events about a 150 days/nights a year.

+1. Apparently we are about the same age and I have similar recollections about the state of Chinatown now compared to 35 years ago.

[japmes]

Originally Posted by mja

Has it, though? I made my first real visit to Chinatown around 1991 or so. Cut school with a couple of friends. Frequented shows at the Troc throughout my late teens and early 20s. As an adult, I'm there often enough and drive through it all the time. I think it's hardly changed at all. In fact, of every neighborhood in Philly, I feel like Chinatown is maybe the one that has changed the least.

Also, the arena would surely have events other than Sixers games. I'd expect it to host events about a 150 days/nights a year.

+2 Chinatown is probably the most unchanged neighborhood in the city. If anything, it has grown, pushing north over the expressway. There are still tons of undeveloped lots to be filled in and the Chinatown stitch is going to set that area on fire. I don't see a decline at all. In fact, Chinatown seems to be growing in the direction away from the proposed arena.

[duffey]

Yes, chinatown has been eaten away at since the mid-70s. By '91 much of the shrinking and slicing had already been done. I don't necessarily foresee a decline. I foresee a sterilization. I share those wonderful memories. I also understand the frustration with market east being a barren hellscape in the middle of the city, and am rarely on the "don't build" side of a large civic project. but I also lived 5 years in DC, and while their chinatown has cultural anchors like the national portrait gallery holding it down, the most Chinese thing about it is a PF Chang's that probably isn't even there anymore (its been a while since I've lived there).

The trajectory of the neighborhood is eerily similar to our own.

In the 80s DC built a convention center in Chinatown, displacing and demolishing whole blocks of Chinese businesses that remained.

In the 80s Philly built a convention center in Chinatown, demolishing a whole block of Chinese businesses along Arch Street.

DC built a mall called Gallery Place in Chinatown in the early 90s, displacing Chinese businesses.

Philly built a mall called The Gallery in Chinatown in the 70s and 80s, displacing Chinese businesses.

DC built an arena, the final nail in the chinatown coffin.
Philly is proposing the same.

DC just doesn't have a vine street expy.

anyway, change has to happen. I get that. the benefit I see to this is that it will encourage a massive increase in SEPTA ridership, and that will do great things for public safety on SEPTA, and for getting cars off the road. love that. the downside is that its just one more behemoth overshadowing chinatown, arenas are deadzones when there's not a game or a show, and crowd mgmt nightmares when there IS a game or show, and the Sixers already have a really great home in south Philly called the Sports Complex and it would be nice to build out that parking lot riddled industrial dead zone. but alas: change is gud.

[Urbanthusiat]

This might be an unpopular opinion but I don't see why we should give one race of people special deference in regards to development. "Chinatown" can exist anywhere, why does it have to be in the middle of downtown? I don't see the Vietnamese community (which there is a large contingent of in Philadelphia as well) getting such deference, and certainly not any African or Hispanic immigrant communities. Why should the city care about maintaining Chinatown when it doesn't do anything to promote any other minority/immigrant communities? I think it gets way too close to racial discrimination if it's government policy to maintain a specific race of people in a specific area of the city.

[Frontst17]

Chinatown doesn’t only have Chinese people living there… it’s a historic neighborhood and a bastion for Asian immigrants in general. It hasn’t been specifically Chinese for quite some time now. And there is a Little Saigon in South Philly and a Little Cambodia.

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat

This might be an unpopular opinion but I don't see why we should give one race of people special deference in regards to development. "Chinatown" can exist anywhere, why does it have to be in the middle of downtown? I don't see the Vietnamese community (which there is a large contingent of in Philadelphia as well) getting such deference, and certainly not any African or Hispanic immigrant communities. Why should the city care about maintaining Chinatown when it doesn't do anything to promote any other minority/immigrant communities? I think it gets way too close to racial discrimination if it's government policy to maintain a specific race of people in a specific area of the city.

Likely a result of the policies that led to the formation of chinatowns in the first place. The CEA and Yick Wo are oft cited examples of the type of treatment that led to these communities banding together. That cultural heritage is something we should preserve, to the extent we can. That said, I'm not in favor curbing development in Chinatown to protect its cultural homogeneity.

[BroadandMarket]

Originally Posted by duffey

Yes, chinatown has been eaten away at since the mid-70s. By '91 much of the shrinking and slicing had already been done. I don't necessarily foresee a decline. I foresee a sterilization. I share those wonderful memories. I also understand the frustration with market east being a barren hellscape in the middle of the city, and am rarely on the "don't build" side of a large civic project. but I also lived 5 years in DC, and while their chinatown has cultural anchors like the national portrait gallery holding it down, the most Chinese thing about it is a PF Chang's that probably isn't even there anymore (its been a while since I've lived there).

The trajectory of the neighborhood is eerily similar to our own.

In the 80s DC built a convention center in Chinatown, displacing and demolishing whole blocks of Chinese businesses that remained.

In the 80s Philly built a convention center in Chinatown, demolishing a whole block of Chinese businesses along Arch Street.

DC built a mall called Gallery Place in Chinatown in the early 90s, displacing Chinese businesses.

Philly built a mall called The Gallery in Chinatown in the 70s and 80s, displacing Chinese businesses.

DC built an arena, the final nail in the chinatown coffin.
Philly is proposing the same.

DC just doesn't have a vine street expy.

anyway, change has to happen. I get that. the benefit I see to this is that it will encourage a massive increase in SEPTA ridership, and that will do great things for public safety on SEPTA, and for getting cars off the road. love that. the downside is that its just one more behemoth overshadowing chinatown, arenas are deadzones when there's not a game or a show, and crowd mgmt nightmares when there IS a game or show, and the Sixers already have a really great home in south Philly called the Sports Complex and it would be nice to build out that parking lot riddled industrial dead zone. but alas: change is gud.

There's no doubt that 676 was unfair to Chinatown but we need to stop acting like Chinatown is alone in highway construction disrupting a neighborhood in Philly. 95 cut through Tacony, Port Richmond, Fishtown, Northern Liberites, Old City, Queen Village, Pennsport and Whitman. 76 ruined sections of Fairmount Park and cut through Grays Ferry. Roosevelt Blvd cut off sections of Hunting Park, Olney, Oxford Circle and more. Look at Fernhill Park and Hunting Park especially, Roosevelt Blvd destroyed two of the biggest parks in North Philly. All of those were raised highways too, at least 676 is buried.

Also to my knowledge Chinatown never went west of 11th. That's where the Reading terminal viaduct came through to the station and made a massive physical barrier right?

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by duffey

Yes, chinatown has been eaten away at since the mid-70s. By '91 much of the shrinking and slicing had already been done. I don't necessarily foresee a decline. I foresee a sterilization. I share those wonderful memories. I also understand the frustration with market east being a barren hellscape in the middle of the city, and am rarely on the "don't build" side of a large civic project. but I also lived 5 years in DC, and while their chinatown has cultural anchors like the national portrait gallery holding it down, the most Chinese thing about it is a PF Chang's that probably isn't even there anymore (its been a while since I've lived there).

The trajectory of the neighborhood is eerily similar to our own.

In the 80s DC built a convention center in Chinatown, displacing and demolishing whole blocks of Chinese businesses that remained.

In the 80s Philly built a convention center in Chinatown, demolishing a whole block of Chinese businesses along Arch Street.

DC built a mall called Gallery Place in Chinatown in the early 90s, displacing Chinese businesses.

Philly built a mall called The Gallery in Chinatown in the 70s and 80s, displacing Chinese businesses.

DC built an arena, the final nail in the chinatown coffin.
Philly is proposing the same.

DC just doesn't have a vine street expy.

anyway, change has to happen. I get that. the benefit I see to this is that it will encourage a massive increase in SEPTA ridership, and that will do great things for public safety on SEPTA, and for getting cars off the road. love that. the downside is that its just one more behemoth overshadowing chinatown, arenas are deadzones when there's not a game or a show, and crowd mgmt nightmares when there IS a game or show, and the Sixers already have a really great home in south Philly called the Sports Complex and it would be nice to build out that parking lot riddled industrial dead zone. but alas: change is gud.

I don't want to reiterate this ad nauseum, but it has been well documented by many publications that Chinatown in DC was already a shell of its former self BEFORE any of that stuff was built, with most of the younger Chinese people decamping to Northern Virginia long before their arena, etc.

The vast majority (something like 80+%) of the Chinese left in that part of DC at that point were in a few public housing projects for elderly Chinese. So there was nothing left to "push out". They had already opted out before it.

Chinatown in DC and Chinatown in Philly are not comparable. In the slightest.

[FtGreeneNY]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

...to my knowledge Chinatown never went west of 11th. That's where the Reading terminal viaduct came through to the station and made a massive physical barrier right?

Yeah, Chinatown essentially ended at 11th; what was in that area west of 11th was basically the Red Light District. I went to AMY CC 80-82 when it was at 219 N. Broad Street and we'd sometimes sneak over there either to Race Pizza (which the convention center did erase) or to the dirty book stores when we were feeling brave.

My Philly Chinatown time started in the early-mid 70's and with the exception of the creep a bit across Vine Street now, the footprint of the neighborhood's essentially the same as it ever was. What's within that footprint may be slightly different, but there's really not been any usurpation; Chinatown was never going to reach Market Street, so while The Gallery's construction was disruptive (as was that of the Commuter Tunnel), the buildings themselves mostly create an unfortunate "wall" on Chinatown's south side. Seems like the arena would just replace a section of what already exists, and that may not be optimal for Chinatown, but it wouldn't be a new encroachment.

If Chinatown expansion is what's desired, as someone noted, there are develop-able lots within Chinatown's footprint, and I've always wondered why the neighborhood didn't expand north - VSE notwithstanding - as it's doing a bit now; hopefully the "stitch" will accelerate that more than providing incentive for non-Chinatown-focused development.

Even the historic Chinatown here in NYC in Manhattan is not what it used to be as other areas of the city - including 2 here in Brooklyn - have developed as Chinatowns (like those in the lower NE in Philly) - that Chinatown also took a huge hit during COVID and has not entirely rebounded from that.

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by FtGreeneNY

Yeah, Chinatown essentially ended at 11th; what was in that area west of 11th was basically the Red Light District. I went to AMY CC 80-82 when it was at 219 N. Broad Street and we'd sometimes sneak over there either to Race Pizza (which the convention center did erase) or to the dirty book stores when we were feeling brave.

My Philly Chinatown time started in the early-mid 70's and with the exception of the creep a bit across Vine Street now, the footprint of the neighborhood's essentially the same as it ever was. What's within that footprint may be slightly different, but there's really not been any usurpation; Chinatown was never going to reach Market Street, so while The Gallery's construction was disruptive (as was that of the Commuter Tunnel), the buildings themselves mostly create an unfortunate "wall" on Chinatown's south side. Seems like the arena would just replace a section of what already exists, and that may not be optimal for Chinatown, but it wouldn't be a new encroachment.

If Chinatown expansion is what's desired, as someone noted, there are develop-able lots within Chinatown's footprint, and I've always wondered why the neighborhood didn't expand north - VSE notwithstanding - as it's doing a bit now; hopefully the "stitch" will accelerate that more than providing incentive for non-Chinatown-focused development.

Even the historic Chinatown here in NYC in Manhattan is not what it used to be as other areas of the city - including 2 here in Brooklyn - have developed as Chinatowns (like those in the lower NE in Philly) - that Chinatown also took a huge hit during COVID and has not entirely rebounded from that.

I read a really interesting article awhile back about the sometimes counterintuitive problems that arise for immigrant communities when those communities start to see success. I think the story was focused on little Italy in NYC. The child whose parents worked long days owning and operating a corner store, or a bakery, etc. to put them through school is far more likely to become a white collar professional than they are to continue the family business. In neighborhoods that don't have an influx of new immigrants this causes obvious issues.

[mja]

Originally Posted by FtGreeneNY

Yeah, Chinatown essentially ended at 11th; what was in that area west of 11th was basically the Red Light District. I went to AMY CC 80-82 when it was at 219 N. Broad Street and we'd sometimes sneak over there either to Race Pizza (which the convention center did erase) or to the dirty book stores when we were feeling brave.

My Philly Chinatown time started in the early-mid 70's and with the exception of the creep a bit across Vine Street now, the footprint of the neighborhood's essentially the same as it ever was. What's within that footprint may be slightly different, but there's really not been any usurpation; Chinatown was never going to reach Market Street, so while The Gallery's construction was disruptive (as was that of the Commuter Tunnel), the buildings themselves mostly create an unfortunate "wall" on Chinatown's south side. Seems like the arena would just replace a section of what already exists, and that may not be optimal for Chinatown, but it wouldn't be a new encroachment.

If Chinatown expansion is what's desired, as someone noted, there are develop-able lots within Chinatown's footprint, and I've always wondered why the neighborhood didn't expand north - VSE notwithstanding - as it's doing a bit now; hopefully the "stitch" will accelerate that more than providing incentive for non-Chinatown-focused development.

This was my general understanding of how things have evolved. Chinatown didn't extend down to Market St, and not all the way to Broad, which was basically the red light district from 11th or so on. There were still signs of the latter still in place on 13th from Vine down to the Gayborhood when I lived in Callowhill from 03-05 before the Convention Center expansion.

Question: What were the state of things where the VSE is now? Was that Chinatown, or more industrial / skid row?

Ironically, I wonder if the huge developments hemming Chinatown in on practically all sides didn't in fact serve to help preserve it. If it communicated more freely to the rest of Center City, you'd think it'd be extremely deep in gentrification right now.

[blorkishdork]

I was just at a meeting about the Chinatown Stitch last week and there is a part of Chinatown north of vine street. Specifically the Holy Redeemer Chinese Catholic church & school (NE corner of 10th and Vine) which was around before the expressway was built. From the presentation, the church and school being cut-off from the rest of the neighborhood was the biggest sore spot when the VSE was built. Which leads me to believe that vine street was a part of Chinatown but north of wood or buttonwood was probably industrial land but I'm not sure as this was well before my time.

I saw several people discussing that the stitch is going to cause gentrification and that was also discussed at the meeting I was at. They are painfully aware that it'll make Chinatown much more attractive place to live and they are working on creating funds for their longstanding community to offset this. There wasn't really a discussion on the arena but it was mentioned and from what I could tell there appears to be room for negotiation with the Chinatown community but it'll be a up hill battle.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by blorkishdork

I was just at a meeting about the Chinatown Stitch last week and there is a part of Chinatown north of vine street. Specifically the Holy Redeemer Chinese Catholic church & school (NE corner of 10th and Vine) which was around before the expressway was built. From the presentation, the church and school being cut-off from the rest of the neighborhood was the biggest sore spot when the VSE was built. Which leads me to believe that vine street was a part of Chinatown but north of wood or buttonwood was probably industrial land but I'm not sure as this was well before my time.

I saw several people discussing that the stitch is going to cause gentrification and that was also discussed at the meeting I was at. They are painfully aware that it'll make Chinatown much more attractive place to live and they are working on creating funds for their longstanding community to offset this. There wasn't really a discussion on the arena but it was mentioned and from what I could tell there appears to be room for negotiation with the Chinatown community but it'll be a up hill battle.

The stitch and the Arena are the same argument - Chinatown and it's likelihood for gentrification.

You can't be psyched about the stitch AND pissed about the Arena.

The irony is that Chinatown is almost entirely Asian owned. So the danger of gentrification will only be realized if Asian owners decide to take advantage. In other words: people who buy properties at low prices and then sell them at higher prices. What's confusing me is... NEVER did someone go into a real estate purchase with the hope that the property values remained completely static. So when exactly did making money on real estate become villainized?

But the argument that Chinatown is at risk of this foreboding corporate force that is going to gut the community to ride a manufactured wave of gentrification is BS. If Chinatown succumbs to gentrification existentially, it's the Asian ownership that will be taking advantage.

[BroadandMarket]

Originally Posted by Redddog

The stitch and the Arena are the same argument - Chinatown and it's likelihood for gentrification.

You can't be psyched about the stitch AND pissed about the Arena.

The irony is that Chinatown is almost entirely Asian owned. So the danger of gentrification will only be realized if Asian owners decide to take advantage. In other words: people who buy properties at low prices and then sell them at higher prices. What's confusing me is... NEVER did someone go into a real estate purchase with the hope that the property values remained completely static. So when exactly did making money on real estate become villainized?

100%. This is the same thing that happened with the Vietnamese shopping center at 16th and Washington. The owner was Vietnamese, he cashed out but the story was gentrification and big bad developers.

As a side note, will the stitch have any sort of road diet for Vine Street? Both sides have 3 lanes of traffic. 2 lanes of traffic with wider sidewalks and intersection bump outs would go a long way in making the stitch actually feel like a park.

The goal for the stitch should be Sara D. Roosevelt Park in the lower east side of NYC. The similarities are pretty funny, it's a long linear park with roads passing through all while being in Chinatown. The big difference I see is purpose. This is a general NYC park thing but their parks all have purpose. There's basketball courts, chess tables, a playground, benches, small field with a track. Too much of the stitch is open green space. No one is going to set up a picnic blanket with 3 lanes of traffic on 3 sides and highway noise from below.



just look around: https://maps.app.goo.gl/vRz2wFKguC7j8Z4K8

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Redddog

when exactly did making money on real estate become villainized?

My guess is when real estate prices jumped to the point that a lot of younger people see owning land as something out of reach and reserved only for "the elite". It's the same group that thought rent should be 100% free during the pandemic (no thoughts to the small time landlords who still had to pay their mortgage).

Is it a logical take? No. Is it somewhat understandable if you squint and turn your head to the side and understand that they refuse to look at anyone else's perspective? Maybe.

[japmes]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

My guess is when real estate prices jumped to the point that a lot of younger people see owning land as something out of reach and reserved only for "the elite". It's the same group that thought rent should be 100% free during the pandemic (no thoughts to the small time landlords who still had to pay their mortgage).

Is it a logical take? No. Is it somewhat understandable if you squint and turn your head to the side and understand that they refuse to look at anyone else's perspective? Maybe.

Perhaps part of it is middle and lower income first time home buyers having to compete for starter homes with all-cash developers and corporate investors driving up prices.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by japmes

Perhaps part of it is middle and lower income first time home buyers having to compete for starter homes with all-cash developers and corporate investors driving up prices.

100% agree.

[PurpleWhiteOut]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

As a side note, will the stitch have any sort of road diet for Vine Street? Both sides have 3 lanes of traffic. 2 lanes of traffic with wider sidewalks and intersection bump outs would go a long way in making the stitch actually feel like a park.

Yes, but I don't know if the details are ironed out yet. I saw a render where a lane was removed for a bike lane, and a mockup that includes "safe crossing corners" (I'm guessing bump ours). The WHYY article also mentions "traffic calming measures" without more specifics