The Canadian Electric Vehicle thread

[urbandreamer]

I'm an introvert with social anxiety. I haven't set foot in a gym since 9th grade. I can't eat in restaurants. There's a reason I like hiking in the middle of nowhere or prefer driving empty rural roads.

I think of my electric forklift experience, how awesome swappable batteries worked: drive all shift then usually towards the end w/ 1% charge left crawl to the battery station and swap out.

Real world range isn't 160 miles, as it's recommended you don't drop below 20% or go above 80%, and fast charging is bad for battery life. So that means in reality you're working around a 50 mile winter range and if you aren't a homeowner you're SOL. There would be no impulsive last minute trips to Muskoka, Goderich or Allegheny National Forest for me... ugh. In Toronto, that 50 miles may last a week if you're using it like many (sad) people: groceries, gym, Home Depot etc. What a tedious, restrictive lifestyle. Most people like this would be better off financially using a car share service, transit and biking to work.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

I'm an introvert with social anxiety. I haven't set foot in a gym since 9th grade. I can't eat in restaurants. There's a reason I like hiking in the middle of nowhere or prefer driving empty rural roads.

Sucks to be you. But you're an edge case for which no automaker is really designing a solution. Least of all one that involves spending billions in new infrastructure.

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Real world range isn't 160 miles, as it's recommended you don't drop below 20% or go above 80%, and fast charging is bad for battery life. So that means in reality you're working around a 50 mile winter range and if you aren't a homeowner you're SOL. There would be no impulsive last minute trips to Muskoka, Goderich or Allegheny National Forest for me... ugh.

Again. Not for you. If that's your use pattern, get something else. These cars are just fine as an urban runabout or commuter car. I have a family friend who owns a Mini Electric. The bought it used (late model) based on my suggestion. They use a wall outlet to charge. They love it. They aren't using it for anything more than a 30km (each direction) commute and getting groceries. Their second vehicle is a Camry that they are now considering replacing with a Mach E. That Mini is perfect for them. It has the range to do what they want. Operating costs beyond consumables are barely noticeable on their monthly electric bill. And they actually like the fit and finish enough that they didn't think it was overpriced. So while cars like this may not work for you, there's a fairly large market of suburbanites who do nothing more with a second car than commute and get groceries, for whom these vehicles are great.

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

In Toronto, that 50 miles may last a week if you're using it like many (sad) people: groceries, gym, Home Depot etc. What a tedious, restrictive lifestyle. Most people like this would be better off financially using a car share service, transit and biking to work.

Highly unlikely they'd be charging only once a week, especially if they are doing the activities you suggest, which allow for concurrent charging. A good chunk of them would also be charging at home.

[wg_flamip]

Battery swapping seems like a bit of a mess, just taking up more space and labour (therefore costing more) to accomplish minimal time savings. Then there's the wear and tear on both the battery and vehicle.

No one has an issue leaving their phone plugged in to charge, and I can't imagine the PITA if that tech used swappable batteries instead. I don't see why cars are any different.

In any case, most drivers already take breaks on longer trips, and those who don't probably should. Scarfing down lunch behind the wheel while going 120 on the highway is a needless distraction (and looks pretty classless), for example.

(Not sure where the thumbs down came from and can't seem to get rid of it)

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

Battery swapping seems like a bit of a mess, just taking up more space and labour (therefore costing more) to accomplish minimal time savings. Then there's the wear and tear on both the battery and vehicle.

Battery swapping only seems to sell in countries that are highly populated with really dense cities, where very few people have garages. That makes the capital investment for swap stations worthwhile. They'll be very busy. By contrast, there's only a few really dense neighborhoods in Canada. And a lot of the rural and suburban battery swap stations would be very lightly used.

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

In any case, most drivers already take breaks on longer trips, and those who don't probably should. Scarfing down lunch behind the wheel while going 120 on the highway is a needless distraction (and looks pretty classless), for example.

It's mostly a unique case here where urbandreamer cannot imagine concurrent activity that most of us would find normal because of his personal struggles.

[goodgrowth]

Battery swapability would only make sense to me if vehicles were significantly outlasting the lifespan of the battery and you wanted to be able to eventually replace it.

Otherwise charging will be good enough and ubiquitous enough where it wouldn't make sense as a day-to-day thing.

[Djeffery]

Battery swapping sounds too much like swapping out tanks for the barbecue. Take your good tank in and end up with some 9 year old piece of crap. Swap it out again for a good one, and decide to keep it and go elsewhere to keep filling it. I can't imagine what kind of game it would be with an EV battery, and the chances you take of getting a less than ideal battery out of it.

And really, I'm not sure why urbandreamer even opens this thread. Clearly he is not an EV person. Fine. Move on. No one here is going to convince you, you sound like a consummate goal post mover. You aren't going to ever come up with a valid reason why EV's are bad to those who contribute to this thread. I don't get why you keep bothering with it.

[urbandreamer]

Ha I was just reading about the Think City car that came out 16 years ago. I've always been a car & future tech nerd, since reading Popular Science & Mechanics as a child/teenager in the early 1980 to mid 1990s. Then I watched Matt Watson test his 1500 pound 2013 Nissan Leaf. I'm just annoyed that EVs are marketed towards the wealthy as a sustainable lifestyle when really they're just another luxury vehicle. I guess we're at about 1920 in EV time, waiting for an affordable Model T to take us into the dirty thirties. When the Mach E was launched, I asked the CEO when they'd launch a Model E. (Did I influence FMC decision to name their EV division Model E?!)

I don't understand why Truenorth doesn't own an EV. It could simply be because like myself, he's unable to justify the expense? It's like eating in restaurants, I can't justify spending $50-100 on food I know costs $10.

Remember, I never owned a car until I was in my 40s. I grew up poor, very restricted actually, depending on public transportation for 25 years, and now I see all the restrictions and monitoring of our routes driven in new cars that is alarming to someone who finally found the freedom affordable personal transportation provides.

[Nouvellecosse]

I'm similar in that I was a car enthusiast as child and teenager. I went from playing with jinky cars and road floor mats to reading her magazines and putting up pictures of cars in my bedroom. I planned to get my driver's license the very day I turned 16 which was the soonest I was legally allowed in NS. I didn't lose my enthusiasm until I got older and moved from a small town to a larger urban area where there was congestion, safety issues and more pollution. Once I realized the drawbacks that existed even in a small urban area like greater Halifax I was somewhat flabbergasted that cars were so prolific even in huge urban areas. I realized that it just wasn't practical.

I gained a new appreciation for my bike, transit and for active transportation at that point. But I still wished for technological improvements for cars to solve some of their issues. Today I don't have a car because I don't need one. I live closely enough to work that I can walk there in about 15 to 20 minutes or bike ride in 10 or less. But cars and car oriented place-making are of general interest to everyone because of the externalities. When you design places to be optimal for cars it causes everything to be spread out because of the extra width of roads and the space required for parking and this makes everyone to travel further including those not using cars. And we all breathe the same air and live in the same climate. To me EVs are simply a harm reduction option. I don't think we'll ever completely eliminate the need for cars, especially since they're necessary to venture out into rural areas. But a major goal should be to greatly reduce their urban numbers by designing cities so that people aren't dependent on them. But in the meantime, reducing the problems caused by cars can still help.

It doesn't really bother me that EVs are still too expensive for low income people because a) all new technology tends to be expensive at first with the prices dropping as production ramps up and b) cheap cars encourages people to buy cars and I don't think that's a very good goal. If you had a combination of cars that are the price of a gas Nissan Micra but the much lower operating cost of an EV then car ownership would be accessible to far more people. Which means more traffic, a greater demand for parking, less active transportation and transit, and a greater strain on the environment due to the increased production. Luxury cars, trucks, and SUVs tend to burn the most gas and therefore cause the most pollution so these are the things that should really be replaced with EVs first. Yes it would be wonderful if there were fewer very large vehicles but I feel like that is a different and more difficult goal than simply making the large vehicles electric.

Poor and middle class people are likeliest to drive compact or subcompact vehicles which have better fuel efficiency and pose less danger to other road users. A vehicle like a Nissan Micra just doesn't have the same level of harmful externalities as say an F-150. So overall I'm mostly happy with how things are going but I realize that we're just in the early to mid point of a transitional process so EVs aren't yet an ideal solution for every motorist. Which is fine because the transition doesn't need to be instant.

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

I don't understand why Truenorth doesn't own an EV. It could simply be because like myself, he's unable to justify the expense? It's like eating in restaurants, I can't justify spending $50-100 on food I know costs $10.

I think a LOT of factors have to line up for an EV to end up cheaper than keeping an already paid off car. You aren't going to replace it until it's either at end-of-life, or it no longer suits your needs, and when you do replace it, most people will expect their "new" car to be newer, have the same or better features, etc.

My 22 year old truck had a transmission leak. I spent $1300 fixing it, probably 25% of the value of the truck. Some people would baulk at that, but what are the other options?

1. Sell it, for less than it would be worth without the leak, buy another one just like it (~$5500), and.... have that one need a similar repair within a year? I'm out $5500 and am in the same situation
2. Sell it, use that as a downpayment on something newer, and have payments going forward? Even if it's cheap, like $250/month, after 6 months I've spent more money, and that only gets worse the longer I have that payment.
2.b) Buy an electric car so I save on gas, to offset my payments: https://www.timetoelectrify.ca/elect...-charge-price/ gives a range of $407 to $712 to drive 20,000km in various electrics. To burn gas in my truck that would be 20,000km * 14 L/100 * $1.50/L = $4,200. $4,200 - $407 = $3,793, or $316 per month fuel savings. Hey, that's pretty good!

Using https://www.scotiabank.com/ca/en/per...alculator.html, if I sell my leaking truck for $4,200 to use as a downpayment, and pay 7.5% interest for 5 years, I can buy a $17,500 car, just with my fuel savings. Not bad!

...Whoops, problem #1. The cheapest Tesla Model Y (the car with the $407 annual cost) on Autotrader.ca is $42,800! Over double! I'd pay $885 on that loan, or be spending $568 more than I was, every month!

Okay, okay, there are cheaper electric vehicles. How about a Nissan Leaf? Much better, I can get a 2018 model for my $17,500 budget. (I could even spend way less, but we don't want a 12 year old battery). Alright!

.... Whoops, problem #2. Now I have a Nissan Leaf instead of a GMC Sierra. Much, much harder to do dump runs, Home Depot trips, etc. Same cost for worse capability. We've lost again, just not in money.

Okay, not the case for everyone though. Hmm, that Leaf looks a lot like my wife's Honda 2017 Fit, though, how does that compare? I think it could sell for 15k, which is a solid down payment. But, the fuel savings will be a LOT less. 20,000km * 7 L/100 * $1.50/L = $2,100 per year, compared to a Leaf's $445. Savings of $1655, or $138 per month.

Back to the payment calculator: Okay, my budget is $19,000.... same ballpark as before, maybe get something a higher trim, less miles, the colour you want, etc. But, it's going to be roughly the same age as the current car - meaning, we'll need to replace it again at roughly the same time. In this breakeven proposition, we're ultimately no farther ahead financially, but had to go through the hassle of selling then buying a new car. I also don't know the new car's history, vs the Fit we've owned since new.

Your desire to drive an EV has to overcome both of those.

But if your current car isn't worth 15k, or if you already do better than 7 L/100, or (a biggie) don't drive 20k a year, if you leave near a reserve or the border and pay $1.20 for gas instead of $1.50, if you can't get that 7.5% interest rate, or you don't want to be seen in a Leaf, or don't believe in Nissan quality vs Honda....

It's really easy to keep you have.

I can't justify spending $50-100 on food I know costs $10.

It's not about the food cost. It's the cost of someone else cooking it for you, someone else bringing it to you while you chill and drink in a cool environment, someone else doing the dishes. You pay a lot more and get a lot more.

It's a terrible comparison for this EV analysis. A better comparison would be paying for taxis everywhere vs owning your own car. In such a comparison, the relevant difference is cooking at home with gas vs electric stove, not home cooked vs restaurant.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

I don't understand why Truenorth doesn't own an EV. It could simply be because like myself, he's unable to justify the expense?

You're being called out. Nice try deflecting.

I have a car that runs. It's a hybrid sedan that has decent room, is in great shape and good on gas. I have EVs that I am interested in, that aren't yet on the market. And I have personal financial decisions (like wanting to move) that preclude having car payments at the moment. When everything lines up, I absolutely will buy an EV.

[urbandreamer]

Tesla just laid off 14% of its workforce, and some long-time employees have resigned. Usually Wall Street loves layoffs so perhaps TSLA will double from $90-180?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I gained a new appreciation for my bike, transit and for active transportation at that point. But I still wished for technological improvements for cars to solve some of their issues. Today I don't have a car because I don't need one. I live closely enough to work that I can walk there in about 15 to 20 minutes or bike ride in 10 or less. But cars and car oriented place-making are of general interest to everyone because of the externalities. When you design places to be optimal for cars it causes everything to be spread out because of the extra width of roads and the space required for parking and this makes everyone to travel further including those not using cars. And we all breathe the same air and live in the same climate. To me EVs are simply a harm reduction option. I don't think we'll ever completely eliminate the need for cars, especially since they're necessary to venture out into rural areas. But a major goal should be to greatly reduce their urban numbers by designing cities so that people aren't dependent on them. But in the meantime, reducing the problems caused by cars can still help.

It doesn't really bother me that EVs are still too expensive for low income people because a) all new technology tends to be expensive at first with the prices dropping as production ramps up and b) cheap cars encourages people to buy cars and I don't think that's a very good goal. If you had a combination of cars that are the price of a gas Nissan Micra but the much lower operating cost of an EV then car ownership would be accessible to far more people. Which means more traffic, a greater demand for parking, less active transportation and transit, and a greater strain on the environment due to the increased production. Luxury cars, trucks, and SUVs tend to burn the most gas and therefore cause the most pollution so these are the things that should really be replaced with EVs first. Yes it would be wonderful if there were fewer very large vehicles but I feel like that is a different and more difficult goal than simply making the large vehicles electric.

Poor and middle class people are likeliest to drive compact or subcompact vehicles which have better fuel efficiency and pose less danger to other road users. A vehicle like a Nissan Micra just doesn't have the same level of harmful externalities as say an F-150. So overall I'm mostly happy with how things are going but I realize that we're just in the early to mid point of a transitional process so EVs aren't yet an ideal solution for every motorist. Which is fine because the transition doesn't need to be instant.

Yes super cheap EVs won't be necessarily all good for even the environment an EV F150 will have a bigger carbon footprint than a Nissan Micra over it's lifetime and even a Leaf is a lot worse than active transport and transit use. Of course many (most?) buyers are replacing more polluting ICE vehicles but even that cuts their emissions by something like half not anywhere near zero as advertised.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by lio45

Just saw my very first Rivian in person! It pulled from the side in front of me so I did get a good look (then I managed to barely take this pic from behind before it escaped).

Are Rivians uncommon in Canada? I must see at least 15-20/day here, and about 3-4 (and climbing) Cybertrucks/day. Lots of Rivian EDVs as well.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by homebucket

Are Rivians uncommon in Canada?

Very. In Ottawa. I've literally never seen one on the street.

[WarrenC12]

I see Rivians here in Vancouver probably daily.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by homebucket

Are Rivians uncommon in Canada? I must see at least 15-20/day here, and about 3-4 (and climbing) Cybertrucks/day. Lots of Rivian EDVs as well.

Lots of Rivians in Vancouver. The Asian market with money flowing from China jumps on the latest vehicle craze and the "no gas tax" is just icing on the cake for them.

[Truenorth00]

I'm more surprised that Amazon hasn't really started rolling out EDVs in Canada, given how expensive gas is and how cheap electricity is, relative to most of the US.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Tesla just laid off 14% of its workforce, and some long-time employees have resigned. Usually Wall Street loves layoffs so perhaps TSLA will double from $90-180?

Interesting that TSLA permabull Dan Ives is quite upset over the loss of Drew Baglino..perhaps it signals that the Model 2 project is now stuck in limbo:

“Baglino is an absolute gut punch loss in our view as he was instrumental in the Powertrain and Energy initiatives at Tesla and was viewed by many as key to the Model 2 initiative over the next few years. The pressure on the stock today is being exacerbated by the Baglino news, which was very unexpected.”


https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-tsla-executive-departures-gut-punch-unexpected-wedbush/

[homebucket]

It'd be a mistake for Tesla to not go through with the Model 2 project. Demand for the 3/Y is slowing, and it's pretty clear most late adopters are waiting for something more affordable. It'd be in their best interest to saturate that market as quickly as possible before any of the other manufacturers or Chinese EVs can come in.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Lots of Rivians in Vancouver. The Asian market with money flowing from China jumps on the latest vehicle craze and the "no gas tax" is just icing on the cake for them.

Perfect injection of your usual racism and xenophobia in a thread with nothing to do with it. Well done.