What midwestern city seems most “urban” to you (except Chicago)?

[Crawford]

Pittburgh, to me, is almost its own thing. Doesn't really fit in the Northeast or Midwest. Like a great metropolis of West Virginia.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Pittburgh, to me, is almost its own thing. Doesn't really fit in the Northeast or Midwest. Like a great metropolis of West Virginia.

It almost was part of Virginia, since the state had competing land claims with Pennsylvania in the early period of the U.S. West Virginia's northern panhandle is a remnant of this settlement.



If the state line had remained where Virginia wanted, most of modern Pittsburgh would be in Virginia, and presumably West Virginia. The exception would be the North Side (historic Allegheny City) which would still be in Pennsylvania, and survive as an independent "twin city" across the state line.

Imagining a West Virginia with Pittsburgh (and most of the metro area) would be interesting. West Virginia would be more like a smaller, more eastern Missouri, with a large rust belt city anchoring it on one side. The state capitol would more likely end up in Morgantown than Charleston as well.

[iheartthed]

Pittsburgh as part of West Virginia would have stunted its growth.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Pittsburgh as part of West Virginia would have stunted its growth.

Eh. Most of the reasons Pittsburgh grew had to do with the strategic location at the intersection of the rivers (and later the rail network) which made it a convenient location to centralize steel production. That wouldn't have changed regardless of the state it was part of - particularly because state policies have really only affected the individual trajectories of cities over the past few generations.

I do wonder how urban renewal/the white flight era would be different with a state line at the Allegheny/Ohio, and Allegheny City as an independent municipality. Pittsburgh was always a city relatively lightly touched by white flight compared to its peers, but when it happened it was pretty widely spread, with neighborhoods affected across the city in pockets. But in a "twin cities" scenario, Allegheny City could either be relatively untouched by white flight, or conversely end up much more heavily impacted.

[skysoar]

The city that seems to be most urban to me outside of Chicago in the Midwest would be Cincinnati. Cincinnati has a lot of Eastern U.S bones, very similar to Pittsburgh. The view of Cincinnati as you enter in from Kentucky is almost as impressive as coming out of the tunnel in Pittsburgh and seeing downtown Pittsburgh.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Pittsburgh does have cultural commonalities with the Lower Midwest, but the nearest major city with some commonalities is Cincinnati, and that's on the opposite side of Ohio.

Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Louisville and St. Louis all have these weird "not exactly Midwest, but not exactly Southern or Atlantic" vibes. Cincinnati and St. Louis are clearly the most "Midwestern" of the four, but they're all probably best left in a category called "WHAT THE HELL ARE THEY!?"

That said, I've only been to Pittsburgh once in 2005 but the similarities between it and my hometown of Cincinnati are almost eerie. Lots of surface level commonalities between places like Squirrel Hill and Hyde Park, and Oakland and Clifton. Plus, the rivers.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by skysoar

The city that seems to be most urban to me outside of Chicago in the Midwest would be Cincinnati. Cincinnati has a lot of Eastern U.S bones, very similar to Pittsburgh. The view of Cincinnati as you enter in from Kentucky is almost as impressive as coming out of the tunnel in Pittsburgh and seeing downtown Pittsburgh.

Cincinnati seems pretty nice. Cleveland as well.

[edale]

Originally Posted by eschaton

When I moved to Pittsburgh 16 years ago, I naively (as someone from the Northeast Corridor) thought of it as being midwestern. I was quickly corrected by locals, and now defend its non-midwesternness.

I think the bug that people have regarding this is due to the sports rivalry with Cleveland. People here have no issue if you call Pittsburgh Appalachian, for example, so it's not as if they are tied to a Northeastern identity.

But another contributing factor is it doesn't really share a lot of cultural commonalities with nearby parts of the Midwest. Cleveland may only be a two hour drive away, but it's a classic Great Lakes city, with nasal accents, wood-framed detached houses, wide streets, and a monumental downtown. None of this is similar to Pittsburgh at all. Pittsburgh does have cultural commonalities with the Lower Midwest, but the nearest major city with some commonalities is Cincinnati, and that's on the opposite side of Ohio.

Pittsburgh also has major cultural connections to much of Eastern Ohio. Places like Youngstown, Steubenville, Martin's Ferry/Ohio side of the Wheeling Metro...all basically the same as Western PA. Those people go to Pittsburgh for all their big city needs, cheer for their pro sports teams, have a similar cultural composition (Italian, Eastern European), etc. The built form (or what's left of it) is similar, too. Eastern OH, northern WV, and SW Pennsylvania are certainly not midwestern, certainly not east coat. It's northern Appalachia, and it's the blurry line between two big regions.

[iheartthed]

The river cities feel like relatives to me. I would personally place Pittsburgh in that river city bucket with Cincinnati, St. Louis, Memphis, New Orleans, and maybe even Minneapolis/St. Paul. Cincinnati, St. Louis, Memphis, and Pittsburgh seem like the most closely related of that river city group. Despite Cincy and Cleveland being in the same state, Cincy and Pittsburgh seem more related to me.

[edale]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Louisville and St. Louis all have these weird "not exactly Midwest, but not exactly Southern or Atlantic" vibes. Cincinnati and St. Louis are clearly the most "Midwestern" of the four, but they're all probably best left in a category called "WHAT THE HELL ARE THEY!?"

That said, I've only been to Pittsburgh once in 2005 but the similarities between it and my hometown of Cincinnati are almost eerie. Lots of surface level commonalities between places like Squirrel Hill and Hyde Park, and Oakland and Clifton. Plus, the rivers.

I agree Cincinnati and Pittsburgh feel pretty similar in places. Pittsburgh seems more intense to me, overall. Their downtown is bigger and has taller buildings, their hills are steeper and topography is more rugged, there's more monumentality-- think the part of Oakland with the museums, library, Cathedral of Learning, etc. Cincinnati feels gentler, more southern influenced, a bit smaller, and wealthier. Cincinnati is way less 'ethnic' than Pittsburgh, and substantially Blacker. But overall, I do think they feel pretty similar.

St. Louis, to me, feels quintessentially Midwestern. It's literally like the center of the country. And I remember feeling like it was the center of gravity for a pretty large rural area when I visited. The arch had lots of 'fresh off the farm' types lingering about. It's a beautiful city with great architecture and some very cool neighborhoods, but it felt about as midwestern as it gets to me. Maybe with some Southern influences.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

That said, I've only been to Pittsburgh once in 2005 but the similarities between it and my hometown of Cincinnati are almost eerie. Lots of surface level commonalities between places like Squirrel Hill and Hyde Park, and Oakland and Clifton. Plus, the rivers.

Accents are similar. Both cities have a major German influence (though Pittsburgh was later leavened by many Eastern Europeans) and a big Appalachian influence (Native to Pittsburgh, through migrants in Cinci). The architectural styles are quite similar, as is the split between the densely packed, largely brick neighborhoods in flat areas, and the more spread out, more early 20th century neighborhoods on the hilltops. Both cities have narrow streets, weird grid patterns, and a lot of small, clearly-defined neighborhoods due to topography.

The biggest differences I think between the two cities are Pittsburgh was significantly less impacted by white flight, and it's generally speaking a more Democratic/left-leaning city. It's architecture is also a bit more rowhouse-dominated/Philly-esque.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by skysoar

The city that seems to be most urban to me outside of Chicago in the Midwest would be Cincinnati. Cincinnati has a lot of Eastern U.S bones, very similar to Pittsburgh. The view of Cincinnati as you enter in from Kentucky is almost as impressive as coming out of the tunnel in Pittsburgh and seeing downtown Pittsburgh.

the view of the pitts out of the ft pitt tunnel is thee premier knockout urban view in america. day or night. if you have not experienced it make a effort to when you can -- and preferably you get to catch both day/night views!

[AaronPGH]

Unpopular opinion, but I think the northern entrance into Pittsburgh from 279 is nearly as dramatic as the tunnel. The reveal of downtown as you come around the hill is almost as sudden, and from this angle you get the entire skyline view looing like a towering wall in front of you. It makes the city look much larger – the US Steel building looks more like a supertall. And if you get it at golden hour, coming up over the Veterans bridge is absolutely magic.

Obviously still love the tunnel burst as well.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by AaronPGH

Unpopular opinion, but I think the northern entrance into Pittsburgh from 279 is just as dramatic as the tunnel, but for different reasons. The reveal of downtown as you come around the hill is almost as sudden, and from this angle you get the entire skyline view looing like a towering wall in front of you. It makes the city look much larger – the US Steel building looks more like a supertall. And if you get it at golden hour, coming up over the Veterans bridge is absolutely magic.

Obviously still love the tunnel burst as well.

When I first interviewed for a job out here, I was coming down 279 at night, and turned around a bend around a mile out, and BAM - the skyline appeared. Shocked the hell out of me, particularly because there's basically no visible city prior to that (even along the sides of the highway).

The view coming out of the Liberty Tubes/crossing the Liberty Bridge is also pretty dramatic. Really, only East has shitty approaching views - which is ironic, since that's the direction most of the city is in.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Louisville and St. Louis all have these weird "not exactly Midwest, but not exactly Southern or Atlantic" vibes. Cincinnati and St. Louis are clearly the most "Midwestern" of the four, but they're all probably best left in a category called "WHAT THE HELL ARE THEY!?"

I think the terms "midwest" and "midwestern" are really pretty useless as geographical, cultural, built-environment descriptors.

Attempting to take such a vast, widely-differing swath of the country and then select a single word to describe it is utterly foolish. Any time I hear someone use the term in such a generality, I realize that they know very little about our country and the regions / cities which comprise it.

Originally Posted by iheartthed

The river cities feel like relatives to me. I would personally place Pittsburgh in that river city bucket with Cincinnati, St. Louis, Memphis, New Orleans, and maybe even Minneapolis/St. Paul. Cincinnati, St. Louis, Memphis, and Pittsburgh seem like the most closely related of that river city group. Despite Cincy and Cleveland being in the same state, Cincy and Pittsburgh seem more related to me.

Not sure about the Minneapolis-St. Paul part of this though. It doesn't necessarily feel too much like the others in terms of city layout and built environment to me. It feels very, very northern more than anything else.

Originally Posted by edale

St. Louis, to me, feels quintessentially Midwestern. It's literally like the center of the country. And I remember feeling like it was the center of gravity for a pretty large rural area when I visited. The arch had lots of 'fresh off the farm' types lingering about. It's a beautiful city with great architecture and some very cool neighborhoods, but it felt about as midwestern as it gets to me. Maybe with some Southern influences.

Exactly. And just because it may resemble Baltimore, that in no way, shape, or form means that it's somehow not as "midwestern" as other cities may be.

Originally Posted by AaronPGH

Unpopular opinion, but I think the northern entrance into Pittsburgh from 279 is nearly as dramatic as the tunnel. The reveal of downtown as you come around the hill is almost as sudden, and from this angle you get the entire skyline view looing like a towering wall in front of you. It makes the city look much larger – the US Steel building looks more like a supertall. And if you get it at golden hour, coming up over the Veterans bridge is absolutely magic.

Obviously still love the tunnel burst as well.

Yeah, the skyline view is actually better coming in from the north. The drama associated with driving through forested hills, then into a long tunnel, which emerges onto a bridge and opens up to a vast valley confluence of 2 rivers and an unexpected skyline is the the real selling point for coming in from the south.

Originally Posted by eschaton

When I first interviewed for a job out here, I was coming down 279 at night, and turned around a bend around a mile out, and BAM - the skyline appeared. Shocked the hell out of me, particularly because there's basically no visible city prior to that (even along the sides of the highway).

The view coming out of the Liberty Tubes/crossing the Liberty Bridge is also pretty dramatic. Really, only East has shitty approaching views - which is ironic, since that's the direction most of the city is in.

Coming in on 28 from the northeast is pretty good too. I actually think some of the best skyline views of Pittsburgh are from the hilltops in Etna/Shaler/O'Hara areas... you can actually see the skylines of East Liberty, Oakland, and downtown from the same point, all from just above the Allegheny Valley. It's likely the best unknown view of Pittsburgh there is.


Other good approach view are coming in from the west when you round the hill from the West End or from the northwest coming in on 65.

[mhays]

If "Midwest" is a foolish term than so are "West," "West Coast," "East Coast," "South," and so on. Every big catchall is just a catchall. But we need catchalls for a variety of reasons.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by mhays

If "Midwest" is a foolish term than so are "West," "West Coast," "East Coast," "South," and so on. Every big catchall is just a catchall. But we need catchalls for a variety of reasons.

Midwest is less well defined than the other regions. It seems to be the least well defined region in the country.

[ocman]

Cleveland. First rate museum, first rate orchestra. This is what separates it from the other mid-west downtowns that are almost indistinguishable in it’s urban offerings.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by ocman

Cleveland. First rate museum, first rate orchestra. This is what separates it from the other mid-west downtowns that are almost indistinguishable in it’s urban offerings.

In terms of cultural institutions, Detroit has to be the second in the Midwest behind Chicago. Cleveland's probably a solid third, though.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by mhays

If "Midwest" is a foolish term than so are "West," "West Coast," "East Coast," "South," and so on. Every big catchall is just a catchall. But we need catchalls for a variety of reasons.

8 billion percent agreed!

But we have a lot of super-special snowflakes who live in so many super-special snowflake towns that could never ever in a million years be pigeonholed into being anything other than their 100% uniquely glorious individual selves.

People on SSP are often stupid. They'll write 9 goddamn paragraphs about how Cincinnati is so completely different from Minneapolis in every single last possible conceivable way, as though Tokyo was being compared with the 7th moon of Neptune.



Shit ain't quite that fucking different, folks.