The Canadian Electric Vehicle thread

[Al Ski]

We can build as many battery plants as we want - 100, 1000 - whatever..
But without guaranteed access to the materials necessary for the production of said batteries, what does it matter?

And if you think that the price of EVs is going to go down due to 'scale of production' or whatever, think again.

The cost of lithium, THE major component of battery production is currently going through the roof.

The price of EVs isn't going down, it's going up.

I'm a big fan of EVs but this market frenzy is creating - a market frenzy.

And I think we've all seen the effect of market frenzies.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Al Ski

And if you think that the price of EVs is going to go down due to 'scale of production' or whatever, think again.

The cost of lithium, THE major component of battery production is currently going through the roof.

The price of EVs isn't going down, it's going up.

People massively overestimate both the amount of lithium in Li-ion batteries and the cost increases driven by commodity increases. For example, despite lithium prices going up $15/kg (~43%), battery prices are only expected to go up $3/kWh (~2.3%). More numbers here:

https://thedriven.io/2022/01/17/elec...head-skywards/

Input commodity prices still aren't massive drivers of battery costs. And certainly not lithium. Cobalt or Manganese is probably more impactful on costs.

We'll probably also have solid state batteries for auto sometime this decade. And that will drive down costs too.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Al Ski

Scandinavian countries seem to manage their infrastructure quite well, despite the weather.

Perhaps because they've yet to buy into our low-tax 'freedom' nonsense?

American inspired - Canadian adopted, as usual.

They build less road infrastructure, more transit and far fewer grade separated freeways. They also accept longer road travel times and barriers in most of these countries. Lots of ferries to go long distances. For example, Norway is now building a massive $47B coastal highway to connect communities along the 1100km Western coastal route that currently takes 21 hrs to drive. That is probably 10 hrs more than it might take us to drive the same distance (Windsor to Quebec City) in a populated corridor.



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[Al Ski]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

People massively overestimate both the amount of lithium in Li-ion batteries and the cost increases driven by commodity increases. For example, despite lithium prices going up $15/kg (~43%), battery prices are only expected to go up $3/kWh (~2.3%). More numbers here:

https://thedriven.io/2022/01/17/elec...head-skywards/

Input commodity prices still aren't massive drivers of battery costs. And certainly not lithium. Cobalt or Manganese is probably more impactful on costs.

We'll probably also have solid state batteries for auto sometime this decade. And that will drive down costs too.

"Input commodity prices aren't drivers of battery costs"?

OK..

I too would like to live in such a universe.

I guess oil prices also don't affect costs. Cool! Good to know!

Can't wait for that solid state vapourware!

We can just skip over this current bump on the road while waiting for that miracle.

[Al Ski]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

They build less road infrastructure, more transit and far fewer grade separated freeways. They also accept longer road travel times and barriers in most of these countries. Lots of ferries to go long distances. For example, Norway is now building a massive $47B coastal highway to connect communities along the 1100km Western coastal route that currently takes 21 hrs to drive. That is probably 10 hrs more than it might take us to drive the same distance (Windsor to Quebec City) in a populated corridor.



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I'm discussing LOCAL INFRASTRUCTURE.

Not sure what you're on about.

Although we can't even get a no-brainer like an electrified rail route between Montréal-Toronto (And high speed? Impossible!!) never mind underwater tubes so..

We're Canadian, we're getting a new diesel. We should be happy.

You have a strange way of endorsing my point.

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by Al Ski

"Input commodity prices aren't drivers of battery costs"?

OK..

I too would like to live in such a universe.

I guess oil prices also don't affect costs. Cool! Good to know!

Can't wait for that solid state vapourware!

We can just skip over this current bump on the road while waiting for that miracle.

affecting cost ≠ driving cost

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

They build less road infrastructure, more transit and far fewer grade separated freeways. They also accept longer road travel times and barriers in most of these countries. Lots of ferries to go long distances. For example, Norway is now building a massive $47B coastal highway to connect communities along the 1100km Western coastal route that currently takes 21 hrs to drive. That is probably 10 hrs more than it might take us to drive the same distance (Windsor to Quebec City) in a populated corridor.



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that takes that long as those routes are incredibly challenging to build roads along. The coastal highway they are now building is probably the most complex and expensive highway in the planet with not one but multiple of the longest, most innovative bridges on the planet.

It's not by choice.

The areas of Norway that are more "hospitable" have excellent road networks. Oslo has a downtown freeway tunnel and ring road, which is quite extensive for 1.5 million people.

[thebasketballgeek]

Doesn’t Norway also have like $1 trillion in their sovereign wealth funds? That excess of wealth probably helps build these massive infrastructure projects much easier then in Canada where taxpayers bear the brunt of infrastructure costs.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The roads will take more of a beating with EVs too, since they are heavier than ICE cars.

Could it be any worse than the huge boom in the number of large and heavy pickups and SUVs on the roads over the last 25 years?

A Tesla weighs about half as much as a F150.

[rbt]

Originally Posted by Al Ski

Scandinavian countries seem to manage their infrastructure quite well, despite the weather.

I've noticed that too.

Perhaps because they've yet to buy into our low-tax 'freedom' nonsense?

Certainly possible. I found the cheapest transit tickets in Nordic cities to be pretty expensive ($4 to $5.50 for a 2 hour bus pass) but it was also frequent and reliable for cities of that size compared to Ontario.

It is also possible they've found some efficiencies which allow more frequent resurfacing that we don't use for whatever reason.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by esquire

Could it be any worse than the huge boom in the number of large and heavy pickups and SUVs on the roads over the last 25 years?

A Tesla weighs about half as much as a F150.

EVs will also get lighter over time as battery density improves and OEMs get better with vehicle weight reduction. EV makers are very much incentivized to reduce weight. The positive feedback loop on weight reduction with BEVs pays dividends. Gas cars largely seem to be going in the opposite direction though. The fuel consumption penalty for added weight is not very high. Certainly not high enough to impact sales. So OEMs really aren't even trying, unless pushed by emissions standards or CAFE rules, etc. It's much financially rewarding to add feature or focus on manufacturing simplification than weight reduction.

[Jaws]

Originally Posted by esquire

Could it be any worse than the huge boom in the number of large and heavy pickups and SUVs on the roads over the last 25 years?

A Tesla weighs about half as much as a F150.

Tesla Model Y LR 1850 kg
F150 4x4 super crew 2200 kg

Truck weighs 19% more, not 100% more

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Jaws

Tesla Model Y LR 1850 kg
F150 4x4 super crew 2200 kg

Truck weighs 19% more, not 100% more

Tesla Model 3 - 1,612 to 1,831 kg
Ford F-150 - 2,726 to 3,243 kg

The point being it's silliness to complain about "heavy EVs" when there has been an explosion in the number of even heavier trucks and SUVs on the road over the last 25 years.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by esquire

Tesla Model 3 - 1,612 to 1,831 kg
Ford F-150 - 2,726 to 3,243 kg

The point being it's silliness to complain about "heavy EVs" when there has been an explosion in the number of even heavier trucks and SUVs on the road over the last 25 years.

Yeah, I think EVs will get lighter and lighter as battery tech improves. On the other hand, ICE vehicles are trending in the wrong direction. A new BMW 3 series is about 1000 lbs heavier than previous generations.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by theman23

Genesis GV60 also looks pretty cool. Saw a couple parked at the Hyundai Canada HQ in Toronto the other day. hyundai/Kia have some really cool products in the market at the moment, and the Ioniq 5/EV6 are probably the best BEVs on the market.

yeah Kia (imho) has some of the best designed cars with really nice interiors in 2022. Hyundai has nice vehicles as well, but Kias just look sportier. (Kia is the Honda to Hyundai being (usually) more conservative Toyota like)

For those who don't believe Kia is now right up there with Honda and Toyota, please test drive one!

In the early fall my Dad bought a 2022 Kia Sorento PHEV. Previously he's always owned Camrys or Accords.
I went with him to test drive Toyota Rav 4 Hybrid (Prime wasn't available) and the Kia Sorento. While the Toyota is nice (the Prime version is also hella fast), the Sorento's interior looks higher end, more modern with the clean wide screen/digital gauges. The fit/finish seemed to be a cut above the Toyota.

When you use the turn signal one of the digital dials shows the side camera for blind spots, which is a cool feature.
It's AWD and has a "snow" terrain mode so in most places you won't get stuck or fear driving in wintry conditions. With a combined 261hp and 258 lb-ft of torque it's no slouch, even if much slower than a Rav 4 Prime.

He loves it. It looks great, its fully loaded with panoramic moonroof, Bose stereo, has a very nice light grey leather interior with quad captains chairs, heated and cooled seats, and will do ~52km on full electric. When the electric range is exhausted, the 1.6L turbo 4 cylinder kicks in. It's so quiet in electric that one really notices when the gas engine starts running lol
Since my Dad's retired and lives in a small city most of his driving is in full electric mode. Overall it will do a combined 79MPG-equivalent (EPA numbers).

I think with his driving he's getting closer to 90MPG-equiv. With gas prices at $1.50/litre or higher it makes a huge difference.

It also pollutes 3.3 times less in GHGs (EPA figures) while using 1/3 the barrels of oil of the 2009 Camry he owns.
He bought it right before the car lots started to go empty with lack of new vehicles due to the chip shortage + high demand during the pandemic.

It looks very similar to this but with the new 2022 logo as seen on the steering wheel.

[Al Ski]

Originally Posted by jamincan

affecting cost ≠ driving cost

China has spent the last 10-15 years securing source materials throughout the world.

We're late in the game.

We'll produce expensive niche vehicles for the douchebag class while the Chinese flood our market with affordable EVs.

The Chinese understand that we're driven strictly by short term greed and they use that against use.

We never learn.

[travis3000]

Gas prices now in my area are $1.56 per litre. Even with my old Honda Civic that would be $62 to fill up. If I had gone for my Lexus IS or Acura TLX which both need premium I would have been spending $92 for a fill up. The range on all three cars are around 500-550KM .

For the identical range I spend $9 to charge my Tesla at home. The savings are unreal and that doesn't even begin to take into account synthetic oil changes ($100 each), fuel flushes, engine filters, etc.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by travis3000

Gas prices now in my area are $1.56 per litre. Even with my old Honda Civic that would be $62 to fill up. If I had gone for my Lexus IS or Acura TLX which both need premium I would have been spending $92 for a fill up. The range on all three cars are around 500-550KM .

For the identical range I spend $9 to charge my Tesla at home. The savings are unreal and that doesn't even begin to take into account synthetic oil changes ($100 each), fuel flushes, engine filters, etc.

My 4-cylinder sedan was nearly empty so I stopped to fill it up the other day and it took in $100 worth of regular unleaded. That was a first for me, even when I used to have a 6-cylinder SUV that took premium I don't think I ever cracked a c-note.

I'm sure that people crossing this threshold will result in a lot of EVs being sold a year or two down the line.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by travis3000

Gas prices now in my area are $1.56 per litre. Even with my old Honda Civic that would be $62 to fill up. If I had gone for my Lexus IS or Acura TLX which both need premium I would have been spending $92 for a fill up. The range on all three cars are around 500-550KM .

$1.79 here in Vancouver. Catch up.

I hardly pay attention to gas prices, but do notice once in a while. I can't believe I'm almost 4 years into EV driving.

I know you drive a Tesla, but for everybody else out there: just do it and you won't look back.

[Jaws]

Preordered a Genesis GV60 yesterday. I'll proceed subject to pricing and actually driving the car. Need to put the solar panels on my roof to work and dump an ICE car.