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  #261  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2023, 12:47 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
We'll just have to wait to see what they do. But I'm not sure cutting those students is as easy as people think. The biggest beneficiaries of foreign students are often in CPC ridings. Rural colleges and universities that might have to close, have been saved by foreign students. They provide lots of decent jobs in these communities. Those students are also working at a lot of places in these communities. Take away all the foreign students and easily a quarter of the fast food joints in this country would close, with the hardest hit being smaller, rural communities. And then there's housing. A lot of homeowners in small towns have seen massive gains in value thanks to the student influx.

Personally, I have no issues seeing lots of fast food places in the country close and a lot of crappy colleges and universities shut down. But I think governments are going to find that people in many smaller communities aren't so happy with the idea of giving up the only gains from immigration that many of these places have ever seen.

Nobody is going to be upset about some strip mall college in Brampton getting shut down. I'm guessing the people in Cape Breton might react differently if Cape Breton University gets shut down.
I think you are right with this analysis. The chamber of commerce types will also be the loudest voices to keep the student pipeline going whereas maybe overall community sentiment will be more mixed. I wonder if PP gets a 200+ seat majority he might try to ignore caucus grumbling and really swing for the fences with a wholesale rejig of the economy. It will certainly come with big tax cuts to sweeten the pot and give him a lot of trust me political capital.
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  #262  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2023, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Architype View Post
It's going to be illegal to burn wood in Vancouver fireplaces as of 2025. I am not sure about the efficacy of, or genuine motivation for this. We are just a tiny drop of humanity in a vast area of wilderness where forest fires occur routinely.
Wow. That’s pathetic. B.C. hydro losing money or something?

Can you still burn those fake fire logs?

Can you still have fires outside in backyards/parcs?


Sorry kids… no roasted marshmallows, we chose to ban fires instead of private jets.
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  #263  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2023, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
I think you are right with this analysis. The chamber of commerce types will also be the loudest voices to keep the student pipeline going whereas maybe overall community sentiment will be more mixed. I wonder if PP gets a 200+ seat majority he might try to ignore caucus grumbling and really swing for the fences with a wholesale rejig of the economy. It will certainly come with big tax cuts to sweeten the pot and give him a lot of trust me political capital.
Another fine example of the disconnect between powerful (or even semi-powerful) economic interests and the general population.

I am betting that even if Pierre Poilievre gets elected he doesn't change much at all in terms of immigration, TFWs, foreign students, etc.
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  #264  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2023, 1:00 PM
casper casper is offline
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Originally Posted by Hecate View Post
Wow. That’s pathetic. B.C. hydro losing money or something?

Can you still burn those fake fire logs?

Can you still have fires outside in backyards/parcs?


Sorry kids… no roasted marshmallows, we chose to ban fires instead of private jets.
The restrictions are already in place during the summer. Your not allowed to do it May to September. Only applies in urban locations and there is some permitting process you can go through if your wood burning appliance is clean. It is motivated by air quality, not BC Hydro.
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  #265  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2023, 1:08 PM
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A colleague of mine mentioned that he had read an article a while ago by Brian Mulroney saying that as Leader of the Opposition, Poilievre's only job is to hold the government to account. Only once an election is called does he need to present ideas.

I think that's a pretty reasonable point to keep in mind when we criticize Poilievre for not coming forward with any ideas.
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  #266  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2023, 1:20 PM
jonny24 jonny24 is offline
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
All of the machinery used for processing firewood - chainsaws and woodsplitters and such - all come in battery electric variants now. And transportation of course is being decarbonized. So wood absolutely can be a climate friendly heating fuel. Here in Ontario most of the people who burn with wood are rural residents sourcing it from their own properties by harvesting trees that naturally die in windstorms and such, so the transportation aspect is minimal anyway.
This pretty much what my dad does. His boss has a few acres of woods at the back of her farm, she lets him cut it as long as he cleans up anything that falls on trails / in general if it's accessible. In practice that usually means cleaning up 3 trees and felling 3 trees each year. He likes getting the fallen stuff (if we can get at it with a skid steer to remove it) because actually felling it is the riskiest part.
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  #267  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2023, 1:21 PM
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Originally Posted by casper View Post
The restrictions are already in place during the summer. Your not allowed to do it May to September. Only applies in urban locations and there is some permitting process you can go through if your wood burning appliance is clean. It is motivated by air quality, not BC Hydro.
Vancouver is one of the few places in Canada you could get by without continuously heating your home for six months of the year. Which means wood burning would be a very economical option for the few nights a year when the temperature drops. As cost of living increases I’m sure the amount of people who saw wood burning as an option also increased. This would have a massive impact on the utility. If it was just about air quality they’d ban private jets.
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  #268  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2023, 1:23 PM
jonny24 jonny24 is offline
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Pollievre actually has a decent path to sustaining some success here.

1) Campaign on housing, but never mention the true biggest cause (unsustainable immigration). Pitch all his other ideas that people argue won't work.
2) Get elected.
3) Implement his other ideas, while, in the background, fixing the actual biggest cause.
4) Point at his results.
5) Get reelected.
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  #269  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2023, 1:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jonny24 View Post
Pollievre actually has a decent path to sustaining some success here.

1) Campaign on housing, but never mention the true biggest cause (unsustainable immigration). Pitch all his other ideas that people argue won't work.
2) Get elected.
3) Implement his other ideas, while, in the background, fixing the actual biggest cause.
4) Point at his results.
5) Get reelected.
Plausible but still unlikely. Here's why.

Bay Street shifts its support from the Liberals to the Tories to the Liberals to the Tories depending who is likely to get elected.

I am sure that there is a big shift going on behind the scenes at the moment.

Anyway, big business doesn't want the tap of newcomers turned off for a variety of reasons (plus they don't care about the impacts on average Canadians or even on society, just as long as the cash keeps flowing in). Poilievre will be as beholden to them and their interests as much as any PM ever was.
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  #270  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2023, 2:18 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Another fine example of the disconnect between powerful (or even semi-powerful) economic interests and the general population.

I am betting that even if Pierre Poilievre gets elected he doesn't change much at all in terms of immigration, TFWs, foreign students, etc.
I think with 200 seats PP who is very ideological, will ignore a lot of constituencies. I often think this will be a mistake not just politically but economically. I think we have no idea how radical a PP massive majority government could be. Brian Mulroney and Stephen Harper were caucus PMs and Trudeau listens to community groups directly even if mostly ignoring his caucus. PP will listen to his advisors, maybe think tanks and right wing media and likely nobody else. It's going to get ugly in Ottawa. Might want to sell a few of those Ottawa rental properties before 2025.
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  #271  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2023, 3:22 PM
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Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
I think with 200 seats PP who is very ideological, will ignore a lot of constituencies. I often think this will be a mistake not just politically but economically. I think we have no idea how radical a PP massive majority government could be. Brian Mulroney and Stephen Harper were caucus PMs and Trudeau listens to community groups directly even if mostly ignoring his caucus. PP will listen to his advisors, maybe think tanks and right wing media and likely nobody else. It's going to get ugly in Ottawa. Might want to sell a few of those Ottawa rental properties before 2025.
I think you're right, but Money is not one of the constituencies that he will or can afford to ignore.

Think tanks are important too and at least on the right in Canada they tend to focus on money, economic issues and business interests even more exclusively than they do in most any other countries. Canada doesn't have many think tanks either left or right that are concerned with stuff like the future of society, values and culture.
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  #272  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2023, 3:30 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
Alberta actually leads the country in wind & solar investment.
Despite the government hostility towards it. It's the best climate in Canada for it, and the free market is trying to make it happen.
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  #273  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2023, 3:35 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Originally Posted by bolognium View Post
It's the fact that they seem to be pushing this "unreliability" angle with claims of widespread outages that makes the ad campaign feel like it has ulterior motives.
I think they are trying to hide the fact that electricity in Alberta is already the most expensive of the Provinces, thanks to the free market system they have. Complaining about cost would be laughable (well, more laughable).
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  #274  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2023, 3:41 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Hecate View Post
Vancouver is one of the few places in Canada you could get by without continuously heating your home for six months of the year. Which means wood burning would be a very economical option for the few nights a year when the temperature drops. As cost of living increases I’m sure the amount of people who saw wood burning as an option also increased. This would have a massive impact on the utility. If it was just about air quality they’d ban private jets.
lolwut? Nobody wants to add wood smoke to already dirty urban air.

Can you imagine a downtown Vancouver condo tower with ~250 units all burning wood for heat?

Not to mention trying to source it all...
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  #275  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2023, 4:13 PM
Jaws Jaws is offline
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Originally Posted by Loco101 View Post
And talking about electricity prices for 2023:



Source: https://www.energyhub.org/electricity-prices/
The posted Alberta rate is a bit of a half truth. That number appears to come from the September "Regulated Rate Option" costs averaged across the three service providers. Most Albertans, however, do not get their power through the RRO. I pay 0.08/kWh + transmission/distribution fees which nets out at about 0.14/kWh through EPCOR on a 5 year term. The average October RRO is ~0.20/kWh so it's dropped quite a bit from the posted September rates.

Regardless, I'd hate to be running on the RRO especially as a business with large electricity consumption.
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  #276  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2023, 4:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Hecate View Post
Vancouver is one of the few places in Canada you could get by without continuously heating your home for six months of the year. Which means wood burning would be a very economical option for the few nights a year when the temperature drops....
This is just silly. You're suggesting that it would be acceptable for a major urban area to encourage using wood fires for home heating? Vancouver might not share Winnipeg's winter climate but it's not Hawaii or California either. People actually use their furnaces for a good portion of the fall, winter and early spring.
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  #277  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2023, 4:56 PM
whatnext whatnext is offline
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lolwut? Nobody wants to add wood smoke to already dirty urban air.

Can you imagine a downtown Vancouver condo tower with ~250 units all burning wood for heat?

Not to mention trying to source it all...
Woodfired heating seems to work well enough for the greener-than-thou EU. The ban is just pissing in the wind thanks to previous virtue-signalling Vancouver councils.

Europeans Are Burning Trees to Keep Warm
Sky-high energy prices have people turning to wood to provide a cheaper alternative—and EU laws are helping incentivize this.
MATT REYNOLDS SCIENCE NOV 7, 202

IN THE PAST few decades, the European Union has transformed its energy system. In 2005 about 10 percent of all energy consumed in the EU came from renewable sources. Last year that share hit 22 percent—it’s one of the main reasons the bloc’s per capita carbon emissions have rapidly declined in the 21st century. This shift will need to ramp up even further if the EU is to hit its target of net-zero emissions by 2050.

But here’s the weird thing. A huge chunk of that renewable energy comes from burning wood. Nearly 60 percent of all the EU’s renewable energy comes from bioenergy—a catch-all term that encompasses any energy sourced from something recently living. That includes agricultural waste, crops grown for biofuel, and—most importantly—wood from forestry industries. A small proportion of this biomass is turned into biofuels or burned in power plants, but almost three-quarters is burned to warm homes and businesses. And we’re not just talking about wood-burning stoves. Almost all of Sweden’s urban heating is generated by district heating systems, which mostly burn wood produced by the country’s vast and influential forestry industries......


https://www.wired.com/story/eu-forests-energy-crisis/
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  #278  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2023, 5:09 PM
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
Woodfired heating seems to work well enough for the greener-than-thou EU. The ban is just pissing in the wind thanks to previous virtue-signalling Vancouver councils.

Europeans Are Burning Trees to Keep Warm
Sky-high energy prices have people turning to wood to provide a cheaper alternative—and EU laws are helping incentivize this.
MATT REYNOLDS SCIENCE NOV 7, 202

IN THE PAST few decades, the European Union has transformed its energy system. In 2005 about 10 percent of all energy consumed in the EU came from renewable sources. Last year that share hit 22 percent—it’s one of the main reasons the bloc’s per capita carbon emissions have rapidly declined in the 21st century. This shift will need to ramp up even further if the EU is to hit its target of net-zero emissions by 2050.

But here’s the weird thing. A huge chunk of that renewable energy comes from burning wood. Nearly 60 percent of all the EU’s renewable energy comes from bioenergy—a catch-all term that encompasses any energy sourced from something recently living. That includes agricultural waste, crops grown for biofuel, and—most importantly—wood from forestry industries. A small proportion of this biomass is turned into biofuels or burned in power plants, but almost three-quarters is burned to warm homes and businesses. And we’re not just talking about wood-burning stoves. Almost all of Sweden’s urban heating is generated by district heating systems, which mostly burn wood produced by the country’s vast and influential forestry industries......


https://www.wired.com/story/eu-forests-energy-crisis/
Odd, you seem to have left out some key parts of that article:

Quote:
....With Russia’s invasion of Ukraine sending energy prices soaring this winter, many Europeans are looking to wood to provide cheap, reliable energy. In Germany, firewood suppliers are facing unprecedented demand, and landowners are reporting that their forests are being plundered by thieves. NGOs have warned that the increased demand for firewood will lead to a rise in illegal logging and put protected forests at risk. “People are going to burn millions of tons of wood this winter, and there’s nothing we can do about it,” says Martin Pigeon, a campaigner at Fern, a forest-protecting NGO.

A big part of the problem is the Renewable Energy Directive (RED)—a piece of European legislation that classifies some wood products as a renewable fuel and funnels subsidies toward burning them. But revisions to the RED are currently being negotiated. Changes to the legislation could bring these incentives to an end.

Launched in 2009, the RED was set up by the EU to direct funding toward renewable energy projects instead of those based on fossil fuels. “The justification for these subsidies and market incentives was to give renewables a market place in a context where fossils were cheaper,” says Pigeon. Since then, the prices of various renewables have tumbled way below those of fossil fuels, but the RED continues to direct billions of euros of funding toward wood burning, which releases more CO2 per unit of energy than some fossil fuels, as well as causing harmful particulate pollution. “Now we’re looking at a situation where it is profitable to burn wood regardless of legislation, and that is very scary,” says Pigeon.

This might be about to change. The RED is currently being revised in a series of long negotiations between the three different parts of the EU: the Parliament, Commission, and Council. In September, the European Parliament voted to end subsidies for unprocessed wood directly sourced from forests, although a long list of exceptions includes trees cut down due to disease, natural disaster, or fire prevention. Now this legislation must be reviewed by EU member states, which will decide whether they agree with these exclusions and whether they want to phase down the amount of forest wood that can count toward their renewable energy targets. The latter point will prove controversial. In countries like Latvia, Finland, and Sweden, wood-based fuel makes up more than a fifth of renewable energy consumption. Phasing down the renewable status of wood would make it much harder for these countries to achieve their climate goals.

“When we are subsidizing burning of any part of this ecosystem, we are fueling a lose-lose scenario for the climate,” says Lina Burnelius, project leader at Protect the Forest, a Swedish NGO. As well as emitting large amounts of CO2, wood burning incentivizes the logging of forests, which are vital in climate mitigation. It takes trees decades to sequester carbon as they grow, so burning wood today incurs a carbon debt that can only be repaid years into the future. The best way to avoid this debt is simply to leave trees in the ground. Earlier this year an investigation by The New York Times found that trees in a protected forest in Romania were being felled and turned into wood pellets to be burned in stoves and district heating systems across Europe.

Instead of incentivizing the further destruction of forests, we should be channeling more money into insulating homes and installing heat pumps, says Pigeon. Both of these would reduce the demand for energy. And Burnelius points out that we need to make other forms of renewable energy even more desirable than burning wood. For her, that means shifting subsidies for fossil fuels and biomass industries to more strongly support solar, offshore wind, and geothermal energy. “We need to start putting money where it will help everyone in society, not the polluting industries. We cannot go from one climate-harmful fuel to another.”

The money that’s currently channeled into burning could be redirected to help EU citizens pay their fuel bills, says Pigeon. In Central and Eastern Europe, it’s often poorer people who rely on wood stoves to heat their homes—people who will be forced to choose between burning wood or going cold. The solution, Pigeon says, isn’t to ban burning wood, but to change the system so that the most environmentally friendly forms of energy are cheapest.
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  #279  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2023, 5:36 PM
ssiguy ssiguy is offline
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This idea that colleges & universities could potentially have to shut down if they lose all these students is a falsehood. What it means is that they are going to have to prioritize what course they are offering. Canada already has the highest rate of university attainment on the planet according to the UN and yet our productivity level continues to decline against our Western peers. There is a complete disconnect between what we teach and what we need. It is not Canadians responsibility to accept substandard housing or homelessness to keep our post-secondaries happy. They are going to have to live within their means like everyone else and if that means fewer course options or getting rid of some of their bloated bureaucracy then so be it.

As for rural people being upset about losing those students/immigrants, there is not risk to PP as he already has all of that demographic wrapped up. As for a lack of workers, good. This means Canadian businesses are going to have to offer superior wages and investments in productivity to get the most out of the workers they already have like the rest of the Western world. You grow your economy {and hence the standard of living} by either investments in new technology or just importing cheap labour and unfortunately Trudeau has chosen the latter option...........a true race to the bottom.
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  #280  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2023, 5:53 PM
P'tit Renard P'tit Renard is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
We'll just have to wait to see what they do. But I'm not sure cutting those students is as easy as people think. The biggest beneficiaries of foreign students are often in CPC ridings. Rural colleges and universities that might have to close, have been saved by foreign students. They provide lots of decent jobs in these communities. Those students are also working at a lot of places in these communities. Take away all the foreign students and easily a quarter of the fast food joints in this country would close, with the hardest hit being smaller, rural communities. And then there's housing. A lot of homeowners in small towns have seen massive gains in value thanks to the student influx.

Personally, I have no issues seeing lots of fast food places in the country close and a lot of crappy colleges and universities shut down. But I think governments are going to find that people in many smaller communities aren't so happy with the idea of giving up the only gains from immigration that many of these places have ever seen.

Nobody is going to be upset about some strip mall college in Brampton getting shut down. I'm guessing the people in Cape Breton might react differently if Cape Breton University gets shut down.
Given that the distribution of international students is overwhelmingly in two provinces Ontario and BC, I don't think capping or reducing international student numbers back to say 2016-2017 levels would be that hard, especially if it's done in a way that's equitable for other provinces that benefits from a larger rural uplift. In reality most of the Ontario-bound international students end up in the GTA and SW Ontario, which is absolutely drowning from the current influx. IMO, the voters in the GTA, K-W area, London, Surrey etc won't mind a return to sanity.

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