VIA Rail

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I thought I read quite recently that the track on the Gaspé peninsula is currently being repaired and it is not exclusively for passenger trains. There will be some freight as well.

Can you find the source? It would be interesting to read up on it.

Originally Posted by esquire

I purposely didn't mention Calgary-Edmonton for the reason you mention... the political will just isn't there. Alberta could probably pull something like that off it it wanted to, and if it took the lead on a project like that Ottawa would be compelled to contribute. It wouldn't be an Ottawa-driven undertaking.

I'm certain that the time will come where we'll see some sort of competitive passenger rail option between Calgary and Edmonton but we clearly aren't there yet.

Alberta is broke. Oil is taking a hit and Alberta, having not diversified is experiencing a bad economic outlook. I do not see a Calgary - Edmonton line put in without federal push.

Originally Posted by esquire

You say this as though fixing up a very lightly used rail line is the only way to put people back to work. Just how many people do you think would work on rebuilding the Vancouver Island line? Is it possible that there are potentially more useful and productive transportation infrastructure projects that could be built in BC?

The whole line, like 100+. Victoria has been toying with the idea of using the line as a commuter rail. If the line was built up to safely run passenger trains, they could do that and it would be heavily used. That is also a jobs creator as it would need operators and other support staff. So, actually, in the area, it would be one of the most useful things to do.

[lrt's friend]

Can you find the source? It would be interesting to read up on it.

I don't remember if this is what I read, but this does show the progress on the project. It seems that this is a major re-build of the rail line and is seen as a major public works project for an area needing economic development. I expect that resuming passenger rail to Gaspe is seen as a way to boost tourism. This does seem to be a real project which the government is giving some priority so, it appears that it will be brought to completion eventually.

https://activaenviro.ca/en/2020/11/2...e-port-daniel/

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I don't remember if this is what I read, but this does show the progress on the project. It seems that this is a major re-build of the rail line and is seen as a major public works project for an area needing economic development. I expect that resuming passenger rail to Gaspe is seen as a way to boost tourism. This does seem to be a real project which the government is giving some priority so, it appears that it will be brought to completion eventually.

https://activaenviro.ca/en/2020/11/2...e-port-daniel/

Thank you.
It seems 2025 if as the goal for reactivating the Gaspe train.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Thank you.
It seems 2025 if as the goal for reactivating the Gaspe train.

We are seeing that rail projects seen as important to the area, do get government money.

The Churchill railway was critical to the local economy, so rebuilding was top federal priority. The Gaspe railway is also seen as important, so rebuilding will take time, but is taking place. On the other hand, Vancouver Island continues to prosper without its railway, so if they want their rail line back, the province and local municipalities and the public need to speak up loudly and be prepared to invest in it, to get federal funding. Is this happening?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We are seeing that rail projects seen as important to the area, do get government money.

The Churchill railway was critical to the local economy, so rebuilding was top federal priority. The Gaspe railway is also seen as important, so rebuilding will take time, but is taking place. On the other hand, Vancouver Island continues to prosper without its railway, so if they want their rail line back, the province and local municipalities and the public need to speak up loudly and be prepared to invest in it, to get federal funding. Is this happening?

VI isn't connected to the NA railway network. If it were, then we would see investment in it. However, due to it's existence, it can be used for commuter service up island. When I lived there about 7 year ago, they had a feed plant, a propane place and a hydro pole place that all used rail.

[ghYHZ]

Yes....major work is underway on reconstruction of Gaspe Railway including a couple of complete new major bridges...scroll through here for video:

https://www.gaspetrain.org

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

VI isn't connected to the NA railway network. If it were, then we would see investment in it. However, due to it's existence, it can be used for commuter service up island. When I lived there about 7 year ago, they had a feed plant, a propane place and a hydro pole place that all used rail.

I remember seeing some freight trains sitting around in Duncan, B.C., back in 2011. I guess that’s the Island Rail?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I remember seeing some freight trains sitting around in Duncan, B.C., back in 2011. I guess that’s the Island Rail?

That is it. There is a rail barge from the mainland.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I did, lets put that as number 7.

I would put it as #2.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The Dayliner is 225, so it meets your under 800km.

But you also have to consider the populations (from 2016 census) of the cities along the route:

Victoria: 367,770
Nanaimo: 104,936
Courtenay/Comox: 54,157

I challenge you to find any new (or even existing) route (not segment of a long distance route) on that Amtrak map that is serves equivalent populations.

The Northlander is just under 800km, so it meets it too.
Sudbury is about 400m from Toronto is around 400km.

I added every Census Metropolitan Area (CMA) and Census Agglomerations (CA) in Ontario (from the 2016 Census) to a map in Google My Maps, and then overlaid the mainline tracks to Northern Ontario (ROW's courtesy of the Ontario Railway Map Collection).


Mainline Rail to Northern Ontario

You will notice that the ROWs to both Sudbury and North Bay manage to avoid every population centre on the route. This is great for long-haul freight, but not so good for a passenger rail service.

However, if you project the Ontario Northland Bus route on the same map, you will see that buses travel through both Barrie and Orillia on route to both Sudbury and North Bay. Overall, the ONR bus routes do a great job of servicing the population centres of Northern Ontario.


Ontario Northland Bus Routes

Now it is theoretically possible that GO's Newmarket Sub could be used to Allandale Waterfront (just south of Barrie) and then BCRY's track could be upgraded to connect to CP's MacTier Sub, but I am not convinced if it would bring enough value for the money.

Remember stimulus is not about what is needed, but more what will get the economy rolling. Having good paying jobs is a great way to mve the economy forward.

It is actually about both. Sure the government wants to spend money to stimulate the economy, but they also want to get something of value as a result, and not create a long term liability for the government. HFR has a strong potential to actually reduce the amount of subsidy VIA requires in the future. Most other routes you proposed will require significant operational subsidies in perpetuity.

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Jealous. Calgary's is second behind Nashville in the largest cities without inter-city rail on the continent. Now we'll be the largest at least for now...

Actually you are waaaaaaaaay back from the biggest city. Phoenix, with over 4 million people, has absolutely no Amtrak or any other kind of passenger rail.

[ssiguy]

I once took the old E & N to get to Nanaimo and it was kind of neat as it really was a throwback. The whole 'train' was only one car and the only amenity was a pop machine. It was so slow to be almost comical and the only people on it were a few tourists.

It would take a crap load of money to bring the service back to any kind of minimum safety and speed standard as to be an absolutely ridiculous waste of money. I also think you would get a lot of resistance from Victoria city as the city views the old E & N rail corridor as it's only real way to bring rapid transit LRT to it's growing western suburbs.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I would put it as #2.

Ok, it can be 2. However, the list was not what should be done in what order, but just a list of what should be done.

Originally Posted by roger1818

But you also have to consider the populations (from 2016 census) of the cities along the route:

Victoria: 367,770
Nanaimo: 104,936
Courtenay/Comox: 54,157

I challenge you to find any new (or even existing) route (not segment of a long distance route) on that Amtrak map that is serves equivalent populations.

Then we must stop service to Ottawa until service is restored to Calgary. Phoenix is bigger than Ottawa and is only now getting service.

Or... We look our on cities and we use the Amtrak as a guide, not as an exact replica. This is not about equivalent populations, but percentage of populations, and about having as many of our largest metros connected. Itt is also about returning any suspended service.

Originally Posted by roger1818

I added every Census Metropolitan Area (CMA) and Census Agglomerations (CA) in Ontario (from the 2016 Census) to a map in Google My Maps, and then overlaid the mainline tracks to Northern Ontario (ROW's courtesy of the Ontario Railway Map Collection).


Mainline Rail to Northern Ontario

You will notice that the ROWs to both Sudbury and North Bay manage to avoid every population centre on the route. This is great for long-haul freight, but not so good for a passenger rail service.

However, if you project the Ontario Northland Bus route on the same map, you will see that buses travel through both Barrie and Orillia on route to both Sudbury and North Bay. Overall, the ONR bus routes do a great job of servicing the population centres of Northern Ontario.


Ontario Northland Bus Routes

Now it is theoretically possible that GO's Newmarket Sub could be used to Allandale Waterfront (just south of Barrie) and then BCRY's track could be upgraded to connect to CP's MacTier Sub, but I am not convinced if it would bring enough value for the money.

Actually, if we are talking serving Northern ON better, then we need to swing the line to the HCR/ACR to get to the Soo. The 3rd largest city of Northern ON would still be left without passenger rail. But, you weren't talking about Northern ON, were you? You were talking about Central and Eastern ON, which Pembroke and Barrie are a part of. relay the old CN/CP Sub through the Ottawa Valley. Add a train between Ottawa and Winnipeg through SSM and then you will grab most of them. My suggestions are simple, and low hanging fruit that most people may agree on.

Originally Posted by roger1818

It is actually about both. Sure the government wants to spend money to stimulate the economy, but they also want to get something of value as a result, and not create a long term liability for the government. HFR has a strong potential to actually reduce the amount of subsidy VIA requires in the future. Most other routes you proposed will require significant operational subsidies in perpetuity.

Well, the old Southern Canadian used to need less subsidy than the existing Canadian route. So, I would argue that while there may be a subsidy for running it, in the long run, it may prove to be worth the subsidy.

Did you know the military is 100% subsidized? Maybe we should find a way to reduce that? Or, maybe we begin to understand that a government is there to pay for things that will most likely never see a profit.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I once took the old E & N to get to Nanaimo and it was kind of neat as it really was a throwback. The whole 'train' was only one car and the only amenity was a pop machine. It was so slow to be almost comical and the only people on it were a few tourists.

It would take a crap load of money to bring the service back to any kind of minimum safety and speed standard as to be an absolutely ridiculous waste of money. I also think you would get a lot of resistance from Victoria city as the city views the old E & N rail corridor as it's only real way to bring rapid transit LRT to it's growing western suburbs.

I know what you are talking about. However, if the line was up to a reasonable standard, they could use trains similar to the old O Train on them. They are not against it being revamped.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Well, the old Southern Canadian used to need less subsidy than the existing Canadian route. So, I would argue that while there may be a subsidy for running it, in the long run, it may prove to be worth the subsidy.

Here we are again, the moron Micheal Artindale repeating his favourite lie, just because he can’t accept that the actual facts soundly debunk his conspiracy theory:
https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...postcount=1150
https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...postcount=1165

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Ok, it can be 2. However, the list was not what should be done in what order, but just a list of what should be done.

Fair enough. My point is that it would be significantly more viable than most of the other options you posted.

Then we must stop service to Ottawa until service is restored to Calgary. Phoenix is bigger than Ottawa and is only now getting service.

Like usual, you are forgetting the "inter" in inter-city rail service. In case you weren't aware, the "inter" prefix means "between." The population of a single city is only relevant when compared with the population of other nearby cities (and those en route). Ottawa is within about 200km of Montreal (CMA population 4,098,927) and about 400km of Toronto (CMA population 5,928,040), so it is at a significant advantage over Calgary.

Phoenix is close to Los Vegas, but there is no direct rail route between them, so a greenfield route would be necessary to make it competitive (very expensive). It is also close to Los Angeles, but similarly there is not mainline route. There is a branch line via Yuma (which is what the plan is likely to use), but that significantly lengthens the route and significant upgrades will be needed to allow reasonable speeds.

Or... We look our on cities and we use the Amtrak as a guide, not as an exact replica. This is not about equivalent populations, but percentage of populations, and about having as many of our largest metros connected. Itt is also about returning any suspended service.

But it is the actual population that drives ridership, not the relative population to another country. The thing about the E&N is while it might make sense to restore a small section of it for commuter service, given that the track is in bad shape, and the line doesn't connect to any other rail corridors, restoring service is a long shot. And this is coming from someone who grew up on the west coast, has family on the island and attended university in Victoria, so I am not a stranger to the area.

Actually, if we are talking serving Northern ON better, then we need to swing the line to the HCR/ACR to get to the Soo. The 3rd largest city of Northern ON would still be left without passenger rail.

Swinging the line to the Soo would add approximately an extra 300km and only add one more "city" of population 78,159.

But, you weren't talking about Northern ON, were you? You were talking about Central and Eastern ON, which Pembroke and Barrie are a part of. relay the old CN/CP Sub through the Ottawa Valley. Add a train between Ottawa and Winnipeg through SSM and then you will grab most of them. My suggestions are simple, and low hanging fruit that most people may agree on.

The thing about assumptions is the make an ass out of you and me. That isn't what I was talking about.

The track to Pembroke is long gone and not coming back for a long time (if ever). As for Barrie, it isn't about giving it better service, but about making the service up to Sudbury viable. Without Barrie, you have an approximately 400 km train ride to Toronto with no significant stops in between. That would be fine if Sudbury had a population close to a million, to support such a trip on its own, but with a population of only 164,689, it need all the help it can get. Also, with frequent GO service to Barrie, if your destination is somewhere between Barrie and Toronto, you can avoid overshooting your destination and transfer there instead. The fact that ONR buses to Sudbury detour to Orillia (population 31,166) instead of continuing on the 400 north of Barrie, speaks volumes as to the importance to having significant intermediary stops for the route.

Well, the old Southern Canadian used to need less subsidy than the existing Canadian route. So, I would argue that while there may be a subsidy for running it, in the long run, it may prove to be worth the subsidy.

As Urban_Sky has said many times, it is a complex situation and you can't just look at the subsidy for a single route without looking at the effect the plan will have on the subsidy required for other routes.

Did you know the military is 100% subsidized? Maybe we should find a way to reduce that? Or, maybe we begin to understand that a government is there to pay for things that will most likely never see a profit.

That is called value for money. The government is not against subsidies, but they want to see value for the money they invest. The military protects our sovereignty and is well worth the investment. Passenger rail provides a service to Canadians and we need to look at the value of the service being provided compared to the "costs" of not providing the service.

I know what you are talking about. However, if the line was up to a reasonable standard, they could use trains similar to the old O Train on them. They are not against it being revamped.

For some type of commuter rail from Victoria to Langford and Goldstream, for sure. I was even hoping they would buy Ottawa's used Bombardier Talent that they were trying to sell. Unfortunately, no one bought them, so they are being sold for scrap.

[casper]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I once took the old E & N to get to Nanaimo and it was kind of neat as it really was a throwback. The whole 'train' was only one car and the only amenity was a pop machine. It was so slow to be almost comical and the only people on it were a few tourists.

It would take a crap load of money to bring the service back to any kind of minimum safety and speed standard as to be an absolutely ridiculous waste of money. I also think you would get a lot of resistance from Victoria city as the city views the old E & N rail corridor as it's only real way to bring rapid transit LRT to it's growing western suburbs.

What would make sense is a Langford to Victoria and Duncan to Victoria train. Turn it into a commuter rail service.

Perhaps Phase 2 would be Parksville to Nanaimo.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Fair enough. My point is that it would be significantly more viable than most of the other options you posted.

Depends. There currently is no agreement on that route for service. So, it may not be as viable as we might think. however, if they were to add it, I wouldn't be upset at it.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Like usual, you are forgetting the "inter" in inter-city rail service. In case you weren't aware, the "inter" prefix means "between." The population of a single city is only relevant when compared with the population of other nearby cities (and those en route). Ottawa is within about 200km of Montreal (CMA population 4,098,927) and about 400km of Toronto (CMA population 5,928,040), so it is at a significant advantage over Calgary.

Phoenix is close to Los Vegas, but there is no direct rail route between them, so a greenfield route would be necessary to make it competitive (very expensive). It is also close to Los Angeles, but similarly there is not mainline route. There is a branch line via Yuma (which is what the plan is likely to use), but that significantly lengthens the route and significant upgrades will be needed to allow reasonable speeds.

I am not forgetting anything. Toronto is still connected to Montreal. But, when we argue semantics, the point will always be missed. There is no greenfield route in my list. The Victoria - Courtney route would need to be repaired, not completely built from nothing. So, please explain because it doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted by roger1818

But it is the actual population that drives ridership, not the relative population to another country. The thing about the E&N is while it might make sense to restore a small section of it for commuter service, given that the track is in bad shape, and the line doesn't connect to any other rail corridors, restoring service is a long shot. And this is coming from someone who grew up on the west coast, has family on the island and attended university in Victoria, so I am not a stranger to the area.

Why are you so against returning service there?

Originally Posted by roger1818

Swinging the line to the Soo would add approximately an extra 300km and only add one more "city" of population 78,159.

Yes?
That was my response to if you really wanted to serve Northern ON better. Returning the CP route to service as is would be good.

Originally Posted by roger1818

The thing about assumptions is the make an ass out of you and me. That isn't what I was talking about.

The track to Pembroke is long gone and not coming back for a long time (if ever). As for Barrie, it isn't about giving it better service, but about making the service up to Sudbury viable. Without Barrie, you have an approximately 400 km train ride to Toronto with no significant stops in between. That would be fine if Sudbury had a population close to a million, to support such a trip on its own, but with a population of only 164,689, it need all the help it can get. Also, with frequent GO service to Barrie, if your destination is somewhere between Barrie and Toronto, you can avoid overshooting your destination and transfer there instead. The fact that ONR buses to Sudbury detour to Orillia (population 31,166) instead of continuing on the 400 north of Barrie, speaks volumes as to the importance to having significant intermediary stops for the route.

Ahh, I thought you were talking about the Canadian route. I can agree with the idea to go through Barrie.

Originally Posted by roger1818

As Urban_Sky has said many times, it is a complex situation and you can't just look at the subsidy for a single route without looking at the effect the plan will have on the subsidy required for other routes.

He couldn't admit that the subsidy was lower or that the one making the decision was an MP in Edmonton. I no longer pay any attention to anything he says.

Originally Posted by roger1818

That is called value for money. The government is not against subsidies, but they want to see value for the money they invest. The military protects our sovereignty and is well worth the investment. Passenger rail provides a service to Canadians and we need to look at the value of the service being provided compared to the "costs" of not providing the service.

Everyone thinks they know best. It is not as clear cut as your paragraph is.

Originally Posted by roger1818

For some type of commuter rail from Victoria to Langford and Goldstream, for sure. I was even hoping they would buy Ottawa's used Bombardier Talent that they were trying to sell. Unfortunately, no one bought them, so they are being sold for scrap.

For commuter rail, I don't disagree, but this is about Via running the entire line, not just the metro area. That is not intercity rail. You did state that earlier.

Originally Posted by casper

What would make sense is a Langford to Victoria and Duncan to Victoria train. Turn it into a commuter rail service.

Perhaps Phase 2 would be Parksville to Nanaimo.

Via would not go for that. They are not a commuter service.

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Actually you are waaaaaaaaay back from the biggest city. Phoenix, with over 4 million people, has absolutely no Amtrak or any other kind of passenger rail.

Lol that's not "waaaaaaaaay" anything if it's just Phoenix, Nashville, and Calgary.

Anyways, yes Phoenix is served by two regular Amtrak service lines with a station at Maricopa, 45 km south of Downtown Phoenix, well within the Phoenix metropolitan statistical area. Closer to downtown Phoenix than large parts of the actual municipality are.

[casper]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Via would not go for that. They are not a commuter service.

The tracks don't belong to CP anymore. They have been taken over by a local not-for-profit. The same not-for-profit is the likely operator.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by casper

The tracks don't belong to CP anymore. They have been taken over by a local not-for-profit. The same not-for-profit is the likely operator.

This isn't about CP. This is about Via operating a commuter service. If Via paid for the repairs to the tracks, other services run by other operators could be added to the line.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Via would not go for that. They are not a commuter service.

Are you sure about that? In 2016 Via made an unsolicited proposal to Halifax to start and operate a commuter rail line. While it didn't ultimately pan out, this would not have been a traditional intercity route.

Besides, VIA actively courts commuters in the Corridor region, going so far as to actively offer a commuter pass.

Seems to me that they would love to tap the commuter market if the right opportunity popped up.