Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[p_xavier]

Quebec has done a good job of keeping its culture while accepting immigrants. There is also peer pressure for kids to integrate to become "Québécois". Being in the ROC, there are no main core values. "Diversity is strength" is BS. Diversity is what starts wars and destroys countries. You can't keep a country united without something to unite. I'm starting to think that Canada is becoming a Tower of Babbel. You have culture enclaves that don't talk much to each other. Add identity politics and what good can you get from that? It's pretty much neo colonialism at this stage. So good for Québec for keeping its identity.

I would thus say that you can find your old Canada in Québec. It's even more a monoculture now than it was 25 years ago.

[dleung]

The idea that there's a "host society" that others should conform to is great... for the host society

Conversely, Toronto is probably one of few cities in the world where anyone can feel at home and belong here, rather than as a guest with limited access and privileges. I prefer it here obviously because I'm not a masochist.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by dleung

The idea that there's a "host society" that others should conform to is great... for the host society

Conversely, Toronto is probably one of few cities in the world where anyone can feel at home and belong there, rather than as a guest with limited access and privileges. I prefer it here obviously because I'm not a masochist.

I don't mind living as a guest, given my circumstances. It is fueled far more by my own sense of pre-existing identity and history as by anything the Swedes have done; this part of the world has actually been very good to me.

I don't think masochism is the right word, that's a very psychological and pejorative take. Were there no insularity at all, we would see a global monoculture. But I agree with you about Toronto being a standout in the opposite direction, that the city is actually an outlier in this regard, and that it's a notable thing about the place.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The Canada that you knew 25 years ago no longer exists.

The Canada of today is still a magnificent country, but if you return, it will take a little time to adapt.

25 years ago. So, the halcyon days of 1997.

Is Canada really so different today? In certain ways, yes, but not fundamentally.

Walking down the streets of any Canadian city would yield people of a similar temperament when 'Ironic' was released. Austin Powers: International Man of Mystery would be in theatres exploring that same comedic concept, except looking backwards 30 years from then.

Oh sure, nothing quite stays the same, but it never does. But in 25 year spans, 2022 feels a lot less far from 1997 in Canada, than say 1997 did from 1972.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Question: what are the big issues that keep Québécois awake at night? We all know the big English Canada problems: our cities are unaffordable; we have a growing inter generational wealth gap that can’t end well; our industries are sclerotic and seem more interested in paying dividends than investing in productivity that would make Canada competitive. I could go on. I haven’t begun to address other social issues, like First Nations, drug epidemics or a growing underclass. We discuss these ad nauseam on this board.

But what are uniquely Quebec problems that are largely of the province’s own making? So, not problems that Quebec can deflect on the ROC.

-Peace
-Order
-Good governance
-Not becoming extinct in the longer term
-Making sure Law > Dictates Of The Flying Spaghetti Monster

It’s fairly reasonable, and anyone doing a decent job should have no problem keeping the job for a while.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by thewave46

25 years ago. So, the halcyon days of 1997.

Is Canada really so different today? In certain ways, yes, but not fundamentally.

Walking down the streets of any Canadian city would yield people of a similar temperament when 'Ironic' was released. Austin Powers: International Man of Mystery would be in theatres exploring that same comedic concept, except looking backwards 30 years from then.

Oh sure, nothing quite stays the same, but it never does. But in 25 year spans, 2022 feels a lot less far from 1997 in Canada, than say 1997 did from 1972.

Vancouver felt like an Australian city in the 90s because of the cool hippie attitude. Now Vancouver is a mini Hong Kong. Totally different city vibe than what it used to. It's akin to Montréal's social transformation in the 70s with the anglos leaving.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by lio45

-Peace
-Order
-Good governance
-Not becoming extinct in the longer term
-Making sure Law > Dictates Of The Flying Spaghetti Monster

It’s fairly reasonable, and anyone doing a decent job should have no problem keeping the job for a while.

So the first three aren’t problems, they’re ideals. If they were problems, you’d be telling me that Québécois fear that the province is becoming increasingly less peaceful and that governance is decaying in the province. If that’s happening, those are serious problems! But I don’t think they are.

And the last two have an “it’s ultimately English Canada’s fault” vibe to them, which was what I specifically wanted to avoid.

I didn’t post this to score points, but I will concede that I think that Quebeckers have a similar relationship to English Canada that Canadians have with Americans. Canadians are very aware of America’s faults (some of which are stereotypes), and never cease to bring this up, and Americans often play along: “yeah, we suck! Look at all the nice things you guys have”. But, in return, Canadians are reluctant to bring up our own country’s serious problems in conversations with Americans.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

So the first three aren’t problems, they’re ideals. If they were problems, you’d be telling me that Québécois fear that the province is becoming increasingly less peaceful and that governance is decaying in the province. If that’s happening, those are serious problems! But I don’t think they are.

In the general sense of “ballot box issues”, the first three are very important factors. Quebec hasn’t elected someone who wasn’t a “competent manager” in… forever (I actually don’t ever recall us electing an unknown quantity at the provincial level). Going back decades, we only ever elected Hillarys, no Trumps.

And the last two have an “it’s ultimately English Canada’s fault” vibe to them, which was what I specifically wanted to avoid.

Not really. And definitely not in the right wing Albertan sense of blaming the Feds for everything that’s wrong. It’s very much considered an “it’s up to Quebec to handle this one itself” issue. As kool said, the libertarian non intrusive way is STILL the Anglo-American steamroller, it’s a bit like the weather, you just have to deal with it (or fail to, in which case it’s your fault, not Mother Nature’s).

Inflation is a “problem”, but it’s well understood to not be the provincial government fault, so it doesn’t register at the ballot box provincially.

Real estate isn’t yet a problem, but if it ever becomes one, foreign buyers pouring gazillions of laundered imported cash into the Montreal market would be seen as a Federal issue.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by lio45

In the general sense of “ballot box issues”, the first three are very important factors. Quebec hasn’t elected someone who wasn’t a “competent manager” in… forever (I actually don’t ever recall us electing an unknown quantity at the provincial level).

They're fairly broad and non-specific issues, though. The last group of competent managers (Couillard Liberals) got turfed unceremoniously, despite leaving the province of Quebec in the best shape it had been for decades. I guess Ontario did the same of the Wynne Liberals for about the same reasons.

There has to be something at an exclusively provincial level that worries the locals. I could name a bunch of the Province of Ontario's issues: wobbly provincial finances, housing prices, a groaning healthcare system, demographics that are less than fantastic, etc., etc.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by lio45

In the general sense of “ballot box issues”, the first three are very important factors. Quebec hasn’t elected someone who wasn’t a “competent manager” in… forever (I actually don’t ever recall us electing an unknown quantity at the provincial level). Going back decades, we only ever elected Hillarys, no Trumps.

I was curious so I carefully went down the list of Quebec Premiers, and every single one of them going back to the 1940s (which is where I gave up) was at the very least a cabinet minister before ascending to Premier and most of them have very well packed resumes.

Doing the same exercise next door in Ontario out of curiosity, it stops at Doug Ford.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I didn’t post this to score points, but I will concede that I think that Quebeckers have a similar relationship to English Canada that Canadians have with Americans. Canadians are very aware of America’s faults (some of which are stereotypes), and never cease to bring this up, and Americans often play along: “yeah, we suck! Look at all the nice things you guys have”. But, in return, Canadians are reluctant to bring up our own country’s serious problems in conversations with Americans.

There's an absolutely terrible smugness in Canadians whenever something bad happens in the US. Mass shootings, Roe/Wade, etc., any event always leads to a chorus of Canadians feeling the need to point out that these things don't happen here or that they're not as pervasive. It feels like a lot of identity for many in this country is to simply say that we're better than the US which is a very narrow-minded way of internalizing foreign and domestic issues, and as well to brush aside any internal or domestic issues we may face in this country - we do have mass killings, and we do have access to abortion issues. It helps to acknowledge these whenever something bad happens south of the border rather than pretending they simply don't exist.

Originally Posted by lio45

I was curious so I carefully went down the list of Quebec Premiers, and every single one of them going back to the 1940s (which is where I gave up) was at the very least a cabinet minister before ascending to Premier and most of them have very well packed resumes.

Doing the same exercise next door in Ontario out of curiosity, it stops at Doug Ford.

One could interpret this as saying that one cannot be Premier of Quebec without playing along with the exclusive club of Ministers and that the requirements lack outside intervention and thought.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by thewave46

They're fairly broad and non-specific issues, though. The last group of competent managers (Couillard Liberals) got turfed unceremoniously, despite leaving the province of Quebec in the best shape it had been for decades. I guess Ontario did the same of the Wynne Liberals for about the same reasons.

There has to be something at an exclusively provincial level that worries the locals. I could name a bunch of the Province of Ontario's issues: wobbly provincial finances, housing prices, a groaning healthcare system, demographics that are less than fantastic, etc., etc.

Didn’t say they weren’t broad issues, just that they are “issues” considered at voting time.

If you looked at a fictional place that consistently elects unexciting Hillarys and Bidens and no Trumps, and you asked what are the electoral issues that the locals care most about, and we’re told by locals “electing good managers in one of the main ballot box criteria here”, you’d be unsatisfied?

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by lio45

Didn’t say they weren’t broad issues, just that they are “issues” considered at voting time.

If you looked at a fictional place that consistently elects unexciting Hillarys and Bidens and no Trumps, and you asked what are the electoral issues that the locals care most about, and we’re told by locals “electing good managers in one of the main ballot box criteria here”, you’d be unsatisfied?

Somewhat, because even somewhere like Switzerland - well governed as it is - probably has specific issues that the locals worry about. They change and how effectively a government of the day deals with them is up for public debate.

"We choose decent managers" is probably a criteria there too. Why one 'decent manager' gets the job over another is where I'm more going with the line of questioning.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by JHikka

There's an absolutely terrible smugness in Canadians whenever something bad happens in the US.

It is one of our worst characteristics. The complete lack of self-awareness on other actually Canadian topics and issues is just the icing on the cake.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

It is one of our worst characteristics. The complete lack of self-awareness on other actually Canadian topics and issues is just the icing on the cake.

We can mostly get away with it as long as there is enough money to go around.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Somewhat, because even somewhere like Switzerland - well governed as it is - probably has specific issues that the locals worry about. They change and how effectively a government of the day deals with them is up for public debate.

"We choose decent managers" is probably a criteria there too. Why one 'decent manager' gets the job over another is where I'm more going with the line of questioning.

I listed them because they aren’t a deal-breaking criterion everywhere (examples being Ontario and USA).

In other words, there are places that’ll stick to good managers, and there are places that sometimes fall for the siren song of an unknown quantity when the timing is right (strong appetite for change).

There are pros and cons, as JHikka just pointed out. I recall kool saying it was great that a Trump can emerge, because it means the political class isn’t sealed off and reserved for a small group with the right connections.

In Quebec, the experience of at least three generations in a row now is that the position of Premier is only attainable through being a seasoned and liked politician first, THEN going for it later in life.

[niwell]

I don't want to speak for Quebeckers, but friends and acquaintances in Montreal are increasingly talking about unaffordability in the real estate market, particularly for rentals. Obviously not Toronto/Vancouver levels, but seeing a lot of posts about renovictions and the proliferation of airbnbs in "hip" parts of Mtl that were traditionally affordable.

[lio45]

I’m not sure what sort of major current provincial-level electoral issue you guys are looking for, but the Status Quo is about to get reelected easily, which should make it pretty obvious that there’s none at the moment.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by niwell

I don't want to speak for Quebeckers, but friends and acquaintances in Montreal are increasingly talking about unaffordability in the real estate market, particularly for rentals. Obviously not Toronto/Vancouver levels, but seeing a lot of posts about renovictions and the proliferation of airbnbs in "hip" parts of Mtl that were traditionally affordable.

Very true but as I pointed out, that’s not really seen as provincial-level; it’s either a federal issue (foreign money pouring into the country freely) or a municipal one (Airbnb, zoning, permits…)

The Quebec government already makes renoviction as tough as it can realistically be (that pendulum is already so far to that side it’s actually favoring the scenario of remaining a slumlord, since you just can’t get rid of the tenants whatever you do).

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by lio45

I’m not sure what sort of major current provincial-level electoral issue you guys are looking for, but the Status Quo is about to get reelected easily, which should make it pretty obvious that there’s none at the moment.

Some obvious guesses:

State of provincial infrastructure?
Healthcare system, and how it is coping with an aging society?
How the province is changing demographically and where the balance of power is shifting? Is Montreal becoming more or less dominant vis-a-vis the rest of the province?
Long-term fiscal stability of provincial finances/QPP?