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  #7201  
Old Posted May 27, 2020, 8:16 PM
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HomrQT HomrQT is offline
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Originally Posted by Bill_Ding View Post
Um . . . it wasn't a mistake. It was a progression. Gang drew a pretty picture. Then the picture needed to get reviewed, modeled, and engineered. Shocking, I know. The pretty picture didn't work out, so they had to make changes. That is just how the design progresses.
I'll make sure to tell my boss the next time we go over load balance on our servers that it wasn't a mistake it was part of a "progression".

There are processes in place to catch mistakes like this one. The project engineers didn't catch what the city engineers did.
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  #7202  
Old Posted May 27, 2020, 9:23 PM
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Originally Posted by jc5680 View Post
I look at the gradient glass treatment and see a good solution to a change from the original intent. That also strikes me as the kind of thing the design team may typically have to do during any normal VE process. (I suspect angled glass would have been much better at reinforcing the shape, but the end result is still interesting)
You're wrong. The entire point of the gradient is not to be interesting, that's just an added bonus. As has been explained many times. The gradient is specifically designed to make the building more energy efficient by equalizing the solar gain of different sized floor plates.
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  #7203  
Old Posted May 27, 2020, 11:13 PM
pilsenarch pilsenarch is offline
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Originally Posted by gandalf612 View Post
You're wrong. The entire point of the gradient is not to be interesting, that's just an added bonus. As has been explained many times. The gradient is specifically designed to make the building more energy efficient by equalizing the solar gain of different sized floor plates.
You must be joking. Gang did mention this as a justification back in the day, but has rarely repeated it. The solar heat gain variance from the different hues of glass, no 1., is negligible, and no 2., the size of the floor plates are also irrelevant, the only relevancy is the size of the room immediately adjacent to the glass exterior...

they did the glass gradient, not for any ecological reason or LEED reason, but simply because they wanted another gimmick to attach to the project to make it look cool... quite a risky strategy IMO since, as far as I am aware it has never been attempted before (for a lot of reasons I can speculate) and certainly not at this scale...
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  #7204  
Old Posted May 28, 2020, 2:45 AM
Hawkeye343 Hawkeye343 is offline
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The developers of this completely botched tower have now partnered with Dan Gilbert to work on Detroit's new 2nd tallest tower. Great.

Last edited by Hawkeye343; May 28, 2020 at 3:34 AM.
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  #7205  
Old Posted May 28, 2020, 3:54 AM
pilsenarch pilsenarch is offline
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I'm sorry, but I got to say it... totally not acceptable architectural criticism, but... , (btw, I look at this tower every day from my terrace), it's as if someone parked a double-wide trailer in downtown Chicago and it also happened to be a supertall... and as they step outside of their trailer... "but don't you like my T-shirt? It changes colors from the top to bottom! Look!"
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  #7206  
Old Posted May 28, 2020, 1:40 PM
west-town-brad west-town-brad is offline
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Originally Posted by Hawkeye343 View Post
The developers of this completely botched tower have now partnered with Dan Gilbert to work on Detroit's new 2nd tallest tower. Great.
interesting criticism.

of the maybe 50 towers this developer has built over the past 30 years, I'd say vista is by far the most interesting and unique.
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  #7207  
Old Posted May 28, 2020, 2:34 PM
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^ Yes, people seem to have very short memories (or are simply too young to remember the bad old days).

Magellan has come a LONG way from their early days of the true vertical turds like grand plaza, park millennium, etc.

I mean, Vista & Aqua are like the freaking Parthenon & Taj Mahal compared to a shit-pile like one superior place.

Coast seems to have been a kind of turning point for them when they started to care about the exterior architecture of their work.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; May 28, 2020 at 2:45 PM.
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  #7208  
Old Posted May 28, 2020, 6:41 PM
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Originally Posted by pilsenarch View Post
You must be joking. Gang did mention this as a justification back in the day, but has rarely repeated it. The solar heat gain variance from the different hues of glass, no 1., is negligible, and no 2., the size of the floor plates are also irrelevant, the only relevancy is the size of the room immediately adjacent to the glass exterior...

they did the glass gradient, not for any ecological reason or LEED reason, but simply because they wanted another gimmick to attach to the project to make it look cool... quite a risky strategy IMO since, as far as I am aware it has never been attempted before (for a lot of reasons I can speculate) and certainly not at this scale...
My interpretation has long been that the gradient is a way to try and visually reinforce the geometry of the building by creating stylized highlights and shadows in the peaks and valleys. Given how wavy rather than angled the building looks now I imagine it would have looked pretty flat without them once they had to move away from angled glass on the curtain wall.

Gang did something similar with aqua IIRC (and may have used similar rationale?). There are different colors (or maybe levels of reflectivity) used in that building organized in conceptually similar ways. More subtle, but helps reinforces light and shadow.

But yeah, solar heat gain, that ain't it.
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  #7209  
Old Posted May 28, 2020, 10:58 PM
Bill_Ding Bill_Ding is offline
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Originally Posted by HomrQT View Post
I'll make sure to tell my boss the next time we go over load balance on our servers that it wasn't a mistake it was part of a "progression".

There are processes in place to catch mistakes like this one. The project engineers didn't catch what the city engineers did.
The city engineers had absolutely nothing to do with the blow through floor.
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  #7210  
Old Posted May 29, 2020, 1:50 AM
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The city engineers had absolutely nothing to do with the blow through floor.
Yes, they did.
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  #7211  
Old Posted May 29, 2020, 4:06 AM
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Somebody had something to do with the blow through floor, otherwise, there wouldn't be a blow through floor. Regardless of who said what, there is a blow through floor in accordance with the laws of matter and energy, and IMO, I think it adds to this beauty.

I hope they keep that bluish light on that floor. Looks kinda nice. Blue or blueish green.
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  #7212  
Old Posted May 29, 2020, 4:52 AM
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Originally Posted by west-town-brad View Post
interesting criticism.

of the maybe 50 towers this developer has built over the past 30 years, I'd say vista is by far the most interesting and unique.
I didn't make any criticism. The many flaws of this building have already been thoroughly detailed by other forum members.
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  #7213  
Old Posted May 29, 2020, 4:55 AM
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I didn't make any criticism.
The phrase "completely botched tower" falls into the criticism category, IMO.
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  #7214  
Old Posted May 29, 2020, 6:20 AM
Hawkeye343 Hawkeye343 is offline
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
The phrase "completely botched tower" falls into the criticism category, IMO.
No, it is just calling a thing what it is regardless of how the apologists feel. Personally, I would be fine with the blow though floor even though it looks like an afterthought compared to other examples around the world. Even 432 Park did a much more elegant job and personally I can't stand that tower. In my opinion, the worst aspect is the horrible state of the mechanical floors. Although Vista is not the only recent American skyscraper to horribly integrate them.
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  #7215  
Old Posted May 29, 2020, 11:49 AM
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No, it is just calling a thing what it is.
No it's not, it's simply your opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

And if you can't grasp that distinction, you won't last here very long.
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  #7216  
Old Posted May 29, 2020, 1:30 PM
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Originally Posted by pilsenarch View Post
they did the glass gradient, not for any ecological reason or LEED reason, but simply because they wanted another gimmick to attach to the project to make it look cool...
it's actually a very simple concept:

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  #7217  
Old Posted May 29, 2020, 1:57 PM
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from my friend's drone yesterday:

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Last edited by cozy; May 29, 2020 at 1:57 PM. Reason: link to full res
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  #7218  
Old Posted May 29, 2020, 3:36 PM
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Originally Posted by cozy View Post
it's actually a very simple concept:
There is a world of difference between design rational that can be plausibly be used in presentation and choices that were genuinely made to affect the performance of the building. As it's been pointed out before; Gang has a pretty consistent history of verbose design rationale in presentations that can tell an interesting (often environmental) story, but should very much not be taken all that literally.

Glibly sharing their material without actually understanding where it falls on that spectrum doesn't confirm anything other than you saw their presentation materials.

Last edited by jc5680; May 29, 2020 at 3:58 PM.
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  #7219  
Old Posted May 29, 2020, 4:02 PM
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The design description of the gradient glass is weak at best (in my opinion it is ridiculous).

The person who posted that it was just another 'gimmick' was correct. I wish architects had the courage to be honest more often. I think it was a bold, original, and successful aesthetic move (and no doubt other architect will be copy it, just like aspects of aqua have been copied the world over). That's what it is though...and to pretend otherwise is nonsense....and should be called out as such.

Aqua is a vastly more elegant and original building than Vista though. It's not even close. When you have to have completely crappy interior spaces as a result of the 'architecture' on the outside, you didn't really do your job as an architect. That is why buildings with floors that change every floor are best reserved for office program which can be very flexible, or if residential, have very large apartments that can handle the change in depth more elegantly. The lateral design diagram on Vista is a hot mess compared to the simplicity of the Aqua. Yes, tall towers have more issues with lateral design compared to even 800' tall towers, and that's the point. Understanding how to fold lateral design requirements into an overall design of a tall tower is part of the challenge of making an iconic building. Tall towers are not just another exercise in form making.

I remain a huge fan of the talented, dedicated, and hard working men and women at Studio Gang. I hope the short comings on Vista are just a small hick up in what otherwise has been a very successful run for Studio Gang.
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  #7220  
Old Posted May 29, 2020, 4:14 PM
pilsenarch pilsenarch is offline
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Originally Posted by cozy View Post
it's actually a very simple concept:

^jc5680 made it pretty clear what I think about this rationale... I also think I made it clear that I understood the 'concept', it's just not backed up in reality by the fact that there are not significant changes in solar gain with the varying hues of the glass and if you look at their diagram, it's kinda a lie... the spaces inside the building are not all open... in reality the floors are cut into much smaller spaces adjacent to the glass exterior... this fact alone invalidates the whole concept...
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